My new boat nightmare.....Resolved!

[ricohman]

After unwrapping my brand new Starcraft Islander 221 I noticed a few "issues" with the paint, and a few gouged rivets. As a former bodyman I can see the starboard side near the transom has been repaired. Overspray, lots of dust and sanding marks. Embarrasing.
So I contact a local (2 hrs away) dealer and send them the pics of the paint and the serial #. They just called me and said this boat has no cosmetic warranty!
I bought a brand new boat with no cosmetic warranty as Starcraft sold these to the dealer this way at a discount.
And I was told nothing.
I am 3000kms from the dealer I bought it from and I wish I could hop in my truck and return this thing. Its new and I've never even run it yet. I have contacted the dealer I bought it from and the salesman who sold it to me is contacting the owners of the dealership. I have no idea what to do. Makes me sick thinking about this.
I'd like to know about what kind of damage this boat suffered. Is it slathered in bondo? What does "cosmetics" imply? Why wasn't I told of this?:facepalm:
Here are a few pics.

 

[mk4713]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Wow!!!!! how can they get away with that? Did the dealer tell ya it was a flawed boat? I would contact the BBB at the least file a complaint. Thats bad business. Thats why people hate salesman. Sorry bud

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Wow!!!!! how can they get away with that? Did the dealer tell ya it was a flawed boat? I would contact the BBB at the least file a complaint. Thats bad business. Thats why people hate salesman. Sorry bud

They told me this was a brand new boat. It was wrapped for delivery when I picked it up. When I unwrapped it in the spring this is what I saw.
I am hoping they will make this right. But I want to know what happened to this boat.

 

[wagnerz]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

By 'New', you mean new to you. But the boat is used. This is where the dealings with the dealership is what is important. Did they sell you the boat 'as-is?' If so, then you have no legal recourse in most states here in the U.S. I am not sure about Canadian law. Some states have lemon laws that could apply, but once again, not sure about Canada. Maybe the dealer includes some warranty, in that case its still going to be a battle of whether its cosmetic or not, and you would be best served to get the advice of an attorney. Sorry it really sucks when something like this happens.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Starcraft ought to make it right, for marketing/reputation reasons if nothing else.

However, I can tell you from experience with car dealers and new car sales that it is difficult, near impossible, to return a new vehicle for cosmetic reasons (let's assume your repairs are in fact cosmetic and do not affect the safety or function of the vessel). They will say, you bought a boat, you got a boat. If the value of the boat is $200 less due to the repair, they might owe you $200, but not the exchange of a $10,000 boat.

I'm not saying I don't sympathize; I just know you're going to hear over and over that they owe you a new boat and to take it back and it just isn't so.

But try this when negotiating: "Do you know about the repainted BMW?" It was a famous consumer case, I think out of Alabama, where a guy bought a new BMW and learned shortly after that the fender had been scratched in transit and repainted. The dealer refused to reverse the sale, saying at most he gets back the difference in value between his with a repainted fender and one that hadn't been. He persisted, and the jury gave him $90 million. No, it won't happen to you, but all dealers know the story!

So the threat of bad publicity, or a run-away jury (do that have those in Canada?) may help.

PS I can't tell anything from the pictures. But ask yourself this: if they had offered it to you as a "scratch and dent" and you were satisfied that the "damage" was just cosmetic, how much less would you have paid for it? That's what you are fighting over, not the whole boat.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

By 'New', you mean new to you. But the boat is used. This is where the dealings with the dealership is what is important. Did they sell you the boat 'as-is?' If so, then you have no legal recourse in most states here in the U.S. I am not sure about Canadian law. Some states have lemon laws that could apply, but once again, not sure about Canada. Maybe the dealer includes some warranty, in that case its still going to be a battle of whether its cosmetic or not, and you would be best served to get the advice of an attorney. Sorry it really sucks when something like this happens.

By new I mean brand spanking new. Zero run time. New.
This is not a used boat. Its brand new.

 

[BTMCB]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

First, I am really sorry for what you are going through and I hope that it all works out for you in the end. If I am reading this correctly, you never actually "saw" "inspected" the boat (inside and outside) before you signed the papers and took delivery? If so, I would very carefully review all the paperwork that you signed - the purchase agreement, the delivery / acceptance sheet and any "warranty" papers either provided by the dealer and / or mentioned by the dealer at the time of sale. Also, look for any "as is" phrases in the paperwork. If it were me, after making sure I reviewed the paperwork and was on solid ground, I'd be either hopping an airplane for a face to face meeting with the selling dealer and / or be pulling that boat back to them ASAP. Good luck and keep us informed.

 

[wagnerz]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

They still make a Starcraft Islander 221? If so, then you have a battle not only with the dealership, but also with the manufacturer.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Starcraft ought to make it right, for marketing/reputation reasons if nothing else.

However, I can tell you from experience with car dealers and new car sales that it is difficult, near impossible, to return a new vehicle for cosmetic reasons (let's assume your repairs are in fact cosmetic and do not affect the safety or function of the vessel). They will say, you bought a boat, you got a boat. If the value of the boat is $200 less due to the repair, they might owe you $200, but not the exchange of a $10,000 boat.

I'm not saying I don't sympathize; I just know you're going to hear over and over that they owe you a new boat and to take it back and it just isn't so.

But try this when negotiating: "Do you know about the repainted BMW?" It was a famous consumer case, I think out of Alabama, where a guy bought a new BMW and learned shortly after that the fender had been scratched in transit and repainted. The dealer refused to reverse the sale, saying at most he gets back the difference in value between his with a repainted fender and one that hadn't been. He persisted, and the jury gave him $90 million. No, it won't happen to you, but all dealers know the story!

So the threat of bad publicity, or a run-away jury (do that have those in Canada?) may help.

PS I can't tell anything from the pictures. But ask yourself this: if they had offered it to you as a "scratch and dent" and you were satisfied that the "damage" was just cosmetic, how much less would you have paid for it? That's what you are fighting over, not the whole boat.

Good points. I could fix this myself far better than they did but who is "they". And I have zero warranty on cosmetics. Does that include windows and gaskets? Seat cushions? Gauges?
I have been misled and its ruined my day. I wanted a new boat and that's why I bought new this time. But to find out it now has no warranty and has been repaired and they didn't tell me this is a kicker.
I would exchange this in a heartbeat for a new boat with full warranty. Thats what I paid for.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

2011 was the last year. This boat is titled and the serial identifies it as a 2011.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

First, I am really sorry for what you are going through and I hope that it all works out for you in the end. If I am reading this correctly, you never actually "saw" "inspected" the boat (inside and outside) before you signed the papers and took delivery? If so, I would very carefully review all the paperwork that you signed - the purchase agreement, the delivery / acceptance sheet and any "warranty" papers either provided by the dealer and / or mentioned by the dealer at the time of sale. Also, look for any "as is" phrases in the paperwork. If it were me, after making sure I reviewed the paperwork and was on solid ground, I'd be either hopping an airplane for a face to face meeting with the selling dealer and / or be pulling that boat back to them ASAP. Good luck and keep us informed.

I drove there to get it. They had it put together, winterized, wrapped and put on the trailer of my choice. They said it was new, the contract says "new" and the check is in the new box. No "as is" or anything mentioned. They gave me a demo of the boat in the showroom as we didn't want to unwrap it as I was driving 3000kms back home and winter was coming.
I had the entire experience of buying a brand new boat. There was no inspection sheet. I never bought a new boat before so I have no idea what the practice is. I did tell them to go over the boat and make sure its as perfect as it can be.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

They still make a Starcraft Islander 221? If so, then you have a battle not only with the dealership, but also with the manufacturer.

And Starcraft has said this serial number was sold to the dealer at a discount with no cosmetic warranty. I found that out today from a somewhat local dealer.
If they would have told me this I would not have bought it.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

I'm very frustrated for you, I know you bought a NEW boat at NEW boat $$$.

I am very interested in what your dealer says.

 

[90stingray]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

If the dealer got it at a discount due to paint issues etc... did you get the savings passed onto you? Did you get a "good deal" on the boat? If so, there's your discount boat. But it's not right because i know the dealer was trying to pass it off and pocket the savings. Sorry man.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

"And I have zero warranty on cosmetics. Does that include windows and gaskets? Seat cushions? Gauges?"

Yes, you have zero warranty unless your contract gives it to you (although guages might stretch enough into functionability). The base line for almost any transaction is the "warranty of merchantibility" which means it functions for its intended purpose. Sometimes there are consumer protection laws that add limited statutory warranties (note: most lemon laws apply only to new cars). After that, it's purely a function of your contract with your seller, as to what they cover. So when a car has a "50,000 mile transmission warranty" what it covers, or not, is controlled by the contract, not what anyone thinks should, or shouldn't, be covered.

Point is, to win this battle, go into it informed. You are not 100% entitled to reverse the sale and they know it, so you can't make a direct press on that point. You have to be a threat on a point you can win--and reputation is a big concern for many companies. Since you're in Canada I can't assess the threat of a jury, but there are people who can, know what I mean? So yiou might end up with a different boat, happy day, but it isn't because you demanded it out of the box.

And again, I'm sympathetic and know how sick you must feel. You treat yourself to something nice and new and end up havnig to deal with this. No one should want a customer feeling that way--leverage off that.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

"And I have zero warranty on cosmetics. Does that include windows and gaskets? Seat cushions? Gauges?"

Yes, you have zero warranty unless your contract gives it to you (although guages might stretch enough into functionability). The base line for almost any transaction is the "warranty of merchantibility" which means it functions for its intended purpose. Sometimes there are consumer protection laws that add limited statutory warranties (note: most lemon laws apply only to new cars). After that, it's purely a function of your contract with your seller, as to what they cover. So when a car has a "50,000 mile transmission warranty" what it covers, or not, is controlled by the contract, not what anyone thinks should, or shouldn't, be covered.

Point is, to win this battle, go into it informed. You are not 100% entitled to reverse the sale and they know it, so you can't make a direct press on that point. You have to be a threat on a point you can win--and reputation is a big concern for many companies. Since you're in Canada I can't assess the threat of a jury, but there are people who can, know what I mean? So yiou might end up with a different boat, happy day, but it isn't because you demanded it out of the box.

And again, I'm sympathetic and know how sick you must feel. You treat yourself to something nice and new and end up havnig to deal with this. No one should want a customer feeling that way--leverage off that.

I called the Ontario Ministry of Consumer services yesterday. I was told that if the boat was sold to me without proper disclosure and was sold as new with the assumption of full warranty then I can cancel the contract within one year. They also thought that this would be a civil case and with what I told them would have no trouble in any court. I am going to talk to a friend today to see what my options are. If I file in my local court then a representative from the dealer has to make the 3000km trek back and forth.
I am hoping we can work this out but when I called the salesman yesterday he still hadn't looked at the email I sent him with the pics and serial. He seemd a bit annoyed when I asked him to look then he said he would talk to someone about the boat and what is covered and why I wasn't told.
I don't think he will be talking with Starcraft as I believe he knew this before he sold it to me. And I don't think I am going to here back from them anytime soon.
What I would like is reasonable. Fix this spot and a few other cosmetic items and tell me that my hull warranty and all other warranty is good. And pay for a new battery.
What I would like that is unreasonable. They should bring another Islander 221 to me and take this back. Because I never paid for this.
If this doesn't go my way I am going to spread the word about my experience there. I do not believe it would be slander if I am telling the 100% truth.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

And I don't think I am going to here back from them anytime soon.

I would think they could check an email with photos and make a decision within 10 minutes as to what they are going to do. That would include taking 9 of those minutes to contact/discuss the issue with the general manager/owner. In other words you should hear from them within minutes (give or take a minute). If not, we have an additional problem.

At this stage of the game I don't see it as a Starcraft issue, it's a dealer issue (for now).

What I would like that is unreasonable. They should bring another Islander 221 to me and take this back. Because I never paid for this.

I sure can't blame ya for wanting a swap for a NEW boat as that is what was agreed upon when you wrote the check. However, that's a stretch. Shoot, there may not even be a NEW Islander left on the planet by now.

A fat payment mailed to you to cover any repairs you'd like to compete and a little extra for your trouble? That seems very reasonable.

I do hope this works out well for you rico.

 

[lncoop]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Have you dealt with anyone at the dealership other than the salesman? If not, that's a big part of your problem. Salesmen have one job; to sell. I know that sounds ludicrously simple, but it's true. With a few exceptions a salesman would rather give his left cahoney than talk to a custy after a sale, much less entertain objections about the product he just unloaded. This is unfortunate, and as I said, doesn't always apply, but in your case it clearly does. What you expect from the dealer is more than reasonable, and I can't help but think if the right person heard your concerns and your desired solution you'd have no trouble getting this sorted out.

If you haven't already, call back and ask for the sales manager. Tell him what your complaint is and what you'd like to see done to resolve it, and send him a copy of this thread so he can consider the far reaching implications of mistreating a customer, especially one who just popped for a new boat. If you don't get satisfaction there, move up the food chain at the dealer. Exhaust all options at the dealer before you do anything else. I'd be astounded if they didn't make this right and offer you an apology, especially since you've adhered to the two most important tenets of getting what you want from a merchant; knowing what you want and insuring that it's reasonable. Good luck Ricoh. This is unfortunate. Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[ricohman]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

I am calling the manager now.
Maybe the salesman never knew? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[salty87]

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

Re: My new boat nightmare.....

that's a great idea.

if you get no help...i wouldn't be afraid to tackle this from either end. if the boat was sold as new to you as opposed to the no warranty business, i'd bet the manufacturer might be a tad interested to hear it. in the least, i'd bet the sales manager or general manager would rather it didn't go that far. i'd flat out ask them if they'd rather you did that.