metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

[lowshovel1]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

You better start documentation now--your going to need it later! ANY reputable engine builder will clean all galleys and ports several times before assembly for the exact end results you have(shavings in engine)------------2 things are going to happen #1.that moter will not hold up #2. I'll NEVER do business with that particular builder!

 

[Buttanic]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

How much actual engine building does Crusader, Mercrusier, Marine Power, etc really do. They get and engine from GM and hang marine parts on it. If there is a problem it probably started at the GM engine factory.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Originally posted by bluewater19:<br /> YOu don't need the 20 min at 2k if your motor is rollercam. Flat tappets needed that to "break in the cam" follow the engine manufactures break in procedure.

Absolutly true, And, even if it doesnt have roller lifters, if they ran it for twenty minutes at the factory the cam would be broken in anyway.<br /><br />I personally think that it may have a bad cam already. Sounds like what happens when a cam goes flat at startup by the sound of it.<br /><br />I would pull several rod caps, and the main at the oil pump.

 

[yoced]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Question out of curiosity Codfather, are you dealing with Crusader direct, or are you going through a distributor?

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

I bought the engines through a dealer. Crusader themselves have cut the dealer out of negotiaitions. I have dealt with Crusader myself throughout this whole ordeal. ....I have an update: Crusader told me today that chips and particles in the oil are normal! Their next sentence was: " that's what warranties are for!" Basically, they are telling me to take a gamble on whether or not it's going to last! They have admitted to me verbally that there are chips in the oil and authorized the marina to install the engine.... I took the time to call 10 Chevy dealers today. All 10 service managers told me that there shouldn't be any chips at all. Fine particles maybe, but no chips. I told Crusader of my findings, their response was, " you talked to kids who are trained how to change oil and give tune ups!" These guys are G.M certified mechanics!.. I personally went to a Chevy dealer and looked for the two oldest mechanic in the place! These two weren't kids!!!!! Either were the service managers!!!... I was supposed to get a written document stating that Crusader admits to the chips in the oil. It was supposed to be faxed today! Well, I'm home now and NO FAX! By the way, one of the chips looked like half a washer for a 1/4 inch nut!

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Buttanic, You are entirely correct. Crusader and others get the engines from G.M and hang on the marine parts. The only difference is when they have to make a right hand rotation motor. They have to pull the oil pan off, change the cam, etc.

 

[navigator336]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

I'm guessing the GM plant in Mexico is probably state-of-the-art and find it unlikely that the chips,chunks and parts you found came from the plant. Crusader has traditionally been considered one of the best marinizers of auto engines. Unfortunately, Thermoelectron sold the division to Pleasure Craft marine a few years ago. I don't know this necessarily changed the quality, put Pleasure Craft has traditionally been considered one of the worst marinizers.

 

[jbu08873]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Whenever a "new" engine is run for the first time there is a certain amount of particles or grind that you will find in the pan, It should look more like sludge than chips, if you found curley chips from metal shearing than they sent you a mess. All shaving should be blown out of an engine before it is assembled. Save those chips and incase your new engines "get sick" you can have some proof as to their poor craftmanship. Good Luck!

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Jeff, I could definately accept particles and sludge. Unfortunately, what I saw today was far from that! We are talking chips and shavings! I told Crusader about this and they said it was normal. I'm saving the chips, the oil, and the filter. I have a good feeling I'll be needing them in the future. Thanks for the response.... To answer Navigator: I agree, Crusader is supposed to be the best. I really think it's a G.M. problem. Crusader had told me about a new 6 L. engine made here in the U.S. They had me believing that they were going to switch most of their engine production to this new engine, slowly phasing out the 5.7L. This is only my thought here, so don't quote me. As to the chips found in the engine? I can't see where else they could come from??

 

[rodbolt]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

actually tyhe GM High Performance engines are made in still water OK. they also build some for GM auto use as well. the rest have hechen en mexico all over the heads and block. have been for several years,, the 3.0 motor and parts have been cast there for some time. I friend of mine just finnished crating and shipping an entire tooling dept for crank casting and grinding the the south . soon it will be entirly made and assembled south of the border and some is going to central amarica as well. merc outboards will soon be made entirly overseas. so its hard to buy americaan unless you just support the corperate headquarters. them poor boys up in fon du lac best learn how to fix fish heads and rice and speky the chinesee soon or find other carreers. but large chips in the oil are not normal. try the magnet trick. cross your fingers and next time repower with volvo. so far they dont buck much and usually cover replacement time anyway, occasionally they will cover haulout, usually in the case of a very early failure.

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

It's a damn shame Rod! I really like to support American jobs. I actually called the (800) number for G.M today. Now I realize why they couldn't connect me to a support tech. in manufacturing, I guess it's because I don't speak spanish. This entire nightmare with Crusader has made me so angry!!! It just won't end!

 

[nms1991]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Navigator336 where do you get your opinion about PCM from? Because I have beeen dealing with PCM engines for over 14 years and only had 1 failure in that time and it was just recently. Normally PCM is a great company to deal with, most second failures could have been prevented by just looking for the cause and not just fixing the effect. MOst boats that i work on that have problems are mercury powered and they over engineer a simple problem. The reason they are switching to the 6 liter is because the old small block chevy is going out of production in a few years because it does not meet newer emissions standard. CodfatherII not to knock your mechanic or any thing but is he checking over the engines properly after the installation(ie proper fuel flow,cooling,and exhaust system). But for a peice of metal as big as you are describing it will not go past your pickup because it has a screen in it and it will not go past it, the sludge could be assembly lube or some thing to lubricate the engine when it is assembled. And if you do use Volvo make sure the shop that installs the engine is a Volvo certified dealer. And also Navigator336 why has PCM received the JD power assoc. award two years in a row?

 

[olbuddyjack]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

But for a peice of metal as big as you are describing it will not go past your pickup because it has a screen in it and it will not go past it,

Heck it shouldn't be in there in the first place! Thats the problem. Its sloppy work no matter who did it.<br />

not to knock your mechanic or any thing but is he checking over the engines properly after the installation(ie proper fuel flow,cooling,and exhaust system).

The pick up tubes fell off the oil pumps(both motors). Kinda hard to blame the installer for that one.<br />

I told Crusader of my findings, their response was, " you talked to kids who are trained how to change oil and give tune ups!"

And this coming from an overpaid salesman feeding you a line of bullship. Them "kids" are a lot more on the ball than the Crusader rep.

 

[navigator336]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Sorry NMS, I didn't mean to upset anyone with negative comments about PCM. Unfortunately, there are no statistics I know of to validate who's better or worse, just opinions. <br /><br />As to the JD Power rating, boy, take that with a grain of salt. Their criteria for evaluating engines is primarily a function of the boat builders selection of power plant relative to boat size. In addition, it's based on engines a max of 18 months old, not a satisfaction survey after 5 or 6 years. The same survey ranked Evinrude the top 2 stroke outboard!<br /><br />Excerpt from Report dated Oct 2003:<br />"The study is based on responses from consumers who purchased a new 2002 or 2003 model-year boat between January 2002 and February 2003. Boat owners were asked about their on-the-water experience with their new outboard, sterndrive or inboard boat engines. Study results were calculated using an engine performance index, which includes eight engine factors: ease of starting when engine is cold; ease of starting when engine is hot; quietness of the engine at cruising speed; ability of boat to accelerate rapidly; cruising speed of boat; engine fumes; cruise time/range between fuel stops; and the standard warranty coverage of the engine.<br /><br />Evinrude ranks highest among two-stroke outboard engines, with high marks for cruise time/range between fuel stops and lack of engine fumes. Yamaha follows Evinrude in the two-stroke engine segment rankings. Yamaha receives high marks for quietness at cruising speed, ease of starting when hot and standard warranty coverage."

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Nms, I'm not sure what exactly your asking??? The engines haven't been installed yet! He's been a mechanic for over thirty years, and builds and races cars for a hobby.... to answer the question on how big the chips are: If you were to take a 1/4" washer and cut it in half, thats the size. There's one that large and many other shavings. The large one is crescent shaped and made of aluminum. The pan was taken to a machine shop to be looked at. The machinist thought it could possibly be a casting " leftover" fom the bottom of the piston. ... As far as the pickup lines falling off: These two new (06) engines have a completely different set up for the pumps. The pickup line is set in with a metal ring, unlike the old pressed on style. thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate it.

 

[rbezdon]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

sounds like this is basically all good news at this point. The oil pick up issue is likely fixed and inspecting for it caused you to find (and remove) potentially harmful building "scraps" in the engine BEFORE you ran it and hurt anything. Now you should be able to get the engines installed and have a bit of the summer left to break them in. Let us know when your finally back on the water enjoying the purr of those two new beasts!!

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Thanks Vatter, I intend on doing that exactly..... The mechanic had the engine running today. It's not installed yet but everything sounds pretty good. Oil pressure and temp were fine. .... You're right. At least I was able to get all the crap out before the engine was installed..... Here's a crazy question???? If people re-power their boats, would pulling the pan, to clean the residue, be the beginning of an installation process?? Or would this be over-kill???... We would probably want to start a new thread on this one, as this particular thread is getting quite long....... A serious THANK YOU to all who have contributed to this thread, It has helped me immensely!!!!!

 

[rbezdon]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Seems to me like that should be the responsibility of the engine builder. Metal chunks the size you described simply can not be normal. Some fine metalic powder is, especially during break in. After all that is exactly what break in is all about but I just can't see this a normal situation for any engine builder. For those of us that do our own repower, I think it is more common to use a long (or short) block. These engines are only the cast iron parts and are only "spin tested", not run. The come without an oil pan or any other bolt on or "tin" parts (like pans, covers, manifolds etc). Nothing there to catch the stuff you are talking about until after the engine is completed and installed. In addition, not many palces have the facilities to get the engine running outside of the boat.

 

[codfather II]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

Vatter, I agree with everything you've posted above! ...Note: The vice presedent of Crusader told me that EVERY engine, that leaves their facility, has chips and shavings in their engines. I hope that people realize this, if they are considering a re-power. If this kind of thinking is normal for Crusader, I think they should get into a new business!

 

[seapack]

Re: metal chips in oil (brand new Crusader)

FYI. I recently rebuilt my 5.7 Mercruisers. At 20 hours I changed oil and filters and found small metal particles in the filter. The engines run great and I think these particles were from the block machining.