Maybe I have lived too long

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
8,646
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

Thanks, Ladyfish for posting the details in the Plano case. Plano is a rather affluent suburb of Dallas (far north Dallas), you might say it's in the heart of the Bible belt. The biggest SBC church I've ever seen is there.<br /><br />I never really took this whole issue (celebrating Christmas in public schools) seriously until I heard on the radio this morning about the fight to ban red & green napkins from Plano school parties. I heard that the school district is going ahead and using red & green anyway.<br /><br />BTW, I believe the part about Christmas originating with pagan winter festivals; early Christians were persecuted for their faith, so they camoflaged their celebrations by holding them during Roman festivals. Also, having "parties" made Christianity more attractive to potential converts - get 'em in the door so they can hear the message. Not to mention that it's mid-winter in Bethlehem and there ain't no shepards watching no flocks by night up in the hills this time of year.<br /><br />Shouldn't be so hard to believe, look at how we celebrate Easter - the first Sunday following the first full moon following the vernal equinox.<br /><br />Interesting discussion though.
 

rwise

Captain
Joined
Jul 5, 2001
Messages
3,205
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

Maybe we should ban green grass, and red leaves too!
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

Merry Christmas to you all.<br />Merry: Joyfull and triumphant<br />Christ: The saviour<br />Mass: A Gathering of like-minded people to worship,meet, converse, whatever.<br />Gather. Be Joyfull he was born.
 

spratt

Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Messages
1,461
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

I already posted my feelings on Christmas, a couple times. Hopefully y'all have a great year's end, and wonderful New Year too :D :D :rolleyes: :eek:
 

alderman

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2004
Messages
116
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

I sure did not mean to get everyone fired up over this, It was just a way to get something off my chest. I hope I have not offended anyone, seems like most feel as I do.<br />I'm not a religious person (don't mean I don't believe) I just don't attend church except for marryens and buriens. <br />When I grew up attending public schools in 50's and 60's we still said the pledge allegiance to the flag every day. Before a high school football game the coach still led us in prayer ( you did not have to pray just be quiet and let those who did). ROTC was still a high school course, and I took it. <br />I had a father and mother who believed in simple values: If you give some one your word keep it, never start a fight but you had better finish it if your in the right. Be responsible for your own actions. Don't try to make it some body else's fault you did something stupid. <br />All of that and more has worked fairly well for me in the 50+ years I been around, and so far it seems to be working on my daughter.<br />I don't disagree that Christmas has become more of a commercial venture then it was ever intended, but not all of us are in it for that.<br />To me it's still a time to reflect, be with family and friends and let people celebrate as they see fit. As long as it won't interfere with what me and mine do.<br />But this nonsense of telling a bunch of 5 and 6 year olds that a Christmas tree is not, is just a little a overboard in my opinion. Leave it alone, when they get a few years older they can make up there own minds.<br />By the way I can still remember milk being delivered to our door with nothing more then a paper cap, aspirin without triple safety seals and leaving doors unlocked.<br />I have grown used to all the safety and protection from ourselves, don't mean I like it.<br />Marry Christmas<br />Ray
 

kenimpzoom

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
4,807
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

Christians protest actions that play down Christmas' religious nature<br /><br />Wed Dec 22, 6:21 AM ET Top Stories - USATODAY.com <br /> <br /><br />By Richard Willing, USA TODAY <br /><br />Julie West is tired of being wished "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." She's annoyed with department stores that use "Season's Greetings" banners, and with public schools that teach about Hanukkah and Kwanzaa but won't touch the Nativity story.<br /><br /> <br />So last week, she sent a baked protest to a holiday party at her first-grade son's school: a chocolate cake with vanilla frosting and red icing that spelled out "Happy Birthday Jesus." <br /><br /><br />"Christmas keeps getting downgraded, to the point that you're almost made to feel weird if you even mention it," says West, a resident of Edmonds, Wash., who describes herself as a non-denominational Christian. "What's the matter with recognizing the reason behind the whole holiday?"<br /><br /><br />This Christmas season, West has plenty of company. Christians and traditionalists across the nation, fed up with what they view as the de-emphasizing of Christmas as a religious holiday, are filing lawsuits, promoting boycotts and launching campaigns aimed at restoring references to Christ in seasonal celebrations.<br /><br /><br />From New Jersey to California, Christians are moving to counter years of lawsuits that have made governments wary about putting Nativity scenes on public property, and that occasionally have led schools to drop Christmas carols from holiday programs:<br /><br /><br />• In Bay Harbor Islands, Fla., a Christian sued in federal court after town officials refused to let her erect a Nativity scene next to a menorah, or Hanukkah candelabra, on a causeway. Last week, a judge ordered the town to comply.<br /><br /><br />• In Maplewood, N.J., parents and students recently petitioned the local school board after school officials dropped even instrumental versions of Christmas music from class programs. <br /><br /><br />• In Denver, a Protestant church responded to the city's decision to drop "Merry Christmas" from public signs by trying to enter a Christmas-themed float in the holiday parade. Supporters picketed the parade and sang Christmas carols after the float was rejected.<br /><br /><br />• In California, a group called the Committee to Save Merry Christmas is boycotting Federated Department Stores. The group claims that Federated's affiliates, including Macy's, prohibit clerks from saying "Merry Christmas" and ban the word "Christmas" from ads and store displays. The retail giant says it has no such policy.<br /><br /><br />Even Kwanzaa, the African-American harvest celebration, has taken a hit. In Los Angeles, the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, a conservative black activist, has urged black Christians to spurn Kwanzaa, which he calls a "pagan holiday."<br /><br /><br />Split over 'Happy Holidays' <br /><br /><br />The new battles over religion's role in holiday celebrations come more than two decades after the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) and other groups began going to court to try to require municipalities to remove Nativity scenes and other religious displays from public property. The ACLU argued that such religious symbols violated the First Amendment's ban on government-endorsed religion. <br /><br /><br />In two rulings in the 1980s, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) said that Nativity scenes are acceptable when they are combined with other symbols - such as a Santa Claus house - that indicate Christmas is a secular holiday in American culture as well as a religious one.<br /><br /><br />Nevertheless, the threat of lawsuits and a desire to be more sensitive to the nation's growing number of non-Christians - who made up about 18% of the U.S. population in a 2002 survey by Pew Charitable Trusts - has led many governments, schools and businesses to de-emphasize Christ in Christmastime celebrations. Phrases such as "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" have replaced "Merry Christmas" at many public venues.<br /><br /><br />In a new CNN/USA TODAY/Gallup Poll, 44% of Americans surveyed said the trend toward "Happy Holidays" is a change for the better, and 43% said it wasn't. Only 11%, however, said they avoid saying "Merry Christmas" out of fear of offending someone.<br /><br /><br />Carol Sanger, spokeswoman for Federated Department Stores, says Federated employees use phrases such as "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" interchangeably with "Merry Christmas" in order to be "more reflective of the multicultural society in which we live."<br /><br /><br />She says the chain aims to "embrace all" the religious and secular holidays that occur in November and December.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />"If you were Druid, I'd be wishing you a 'Scintillating Solstice,' " Sanger says.<br /><br />John Whitehead, director of the Rutherford Institute, a group in Charlottesville, Va., that defends against challenges to speech and religion rights, says the recent trend has been for schools and municipalities to excise "all mention of Christmas, out of some misshapen idea that this respects diversity."<br /><br />He is particularly critical of decisions such as that made by the school board in Maplewood, N.J., which decided to drop traditional carols and other Christmas music from public school programs during the mid-1990s after receiving several complaints.<br /><br />This year, the ban was extended even to instrumental versions of Christmas songs.<br /><br />Board President Brian O'Leary said in a statement that playing songs that "focus on religious holidays ... could become an opportunity not to learn about a religious holiday or tradition, but to celebrate it."<br /><br />Bans are 'misplaced' <br /><br />Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Arlington, Va., says that such bans are "rare" and "misplaced."<br /><br />Court decisions, Haynes says, permit public school students to study religion and to perform religious music as part of the curriculum, provided that religious practices are not endorsed. <br /><br />Whitehead says that overly cautious approaches to mentioning Christ in Christmas celebrations has meant that "in the name of offending no one, you now have high school kids who can't play music that's part of the culture, and store clerks who are afraid to say, 'Merry Christmas.' It takes a joyous and merry day and just makes it blah."<br /><br />Sandra Snowden agrees. According to papers she filed in a federal lawsuit, the resident of Bay Harbor Islands, Fla., was "offended" that the town allowed a menorah, but not a Nativity scene, to be placed along a public causeway. <br /><br />When she protested, court papers say, town leaders countered that the menorah, which commemorates the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem after a Jewish military victory in 165 B.C., was a secular symbol of freedom.<br /><br />Before a federal judge ruled in her favor, Snowden rejected the town's offer to install a Christmas tree rather than a Nativity scene, which the town officials had called "divisive."<br /><br />Those seeking to put more Christ into Christmas have had other successes.<br /><br />In Mustang, Okla. on Dec. 14, parents incensed that a Nativity sequence had been dropped from a school holiday program organized to help defeat an $11 million school bond referendum.<br /><br />And in Washington state, cake maker Julie West is claiming a small victory.<br /><br />Although her son's teacher expressed some misgivings, West served slices of her "Happy Birthday Jesus" cake to 20 first-graders and about five other parents. No one complained, she says.<br /><br />"I had gotten a legal opinion from the Rutherford Institute saying I was within my rights before I brought the cake to school," West says. "That's Christmas this year, I guess: candy cane frosting and a legal opinion."
 

KennyKenCan

Commander
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: Maybe I have lived too long

Welcome to "COMMUNIST AMERICA"!<br /><br />Where nothing means everything, and everything means nothing!<br /><br />Time to take up arms, and take this country back!
 
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