Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Boomyal

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Originally posted by aspeck:<br /> That said, I still feel the best way to control is abstinence till you are ready to be faithful. 1 partner for life. mrbscott, education is important, but not education to continue the at-risk behaviors, but education to have sex safely - with one partner for life. Abstinence teaching is not "No sex ever." It is sex with one partner.
Not the liberal way, aspeck. You are wasting your breath on mrscott.
 

rudeafrican

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

"I'm definately not going to waste my time researching and presenting the proof to you. You dont want to hear it anyway..."<br /><br />-------------------------------------------------<br />Odjob, I never asked for proof and since when do you know me that you can publically make assumption about my character? <br /><br />Aspeck, yes you are right. The ex mrs Mandela was/is a big snake. It did not take Nelson all that long to realise it once he left prison.<br /><br />Johson-liner, out of the 55+ countries in Africa, South Africa is the most developed with the best infrastructure and facilities. Whilst under white rule, it was on a par with any 1st world country. The world's 1st heart transplant was performed here etc. After democracy, things have slipped a little but that is due to the govt. having to cater for millions of previously disadvantaged individuals. At this point in time we still have the 3rd cleanest tap water in the world and our economy is booming. The rest of Africa unfortunately, is plagued by poverty, corruption and the "entitlement mentality".<br /><br />Just a short note on Mandela's son, yes he was an educated man. He was a corporate lawyer for a large bank (700+ branches countrywide) He was 54 years old when he died. <br /><br />I need to put into context why even educated people die from aids in Africa and I'm sure Aspeck can bear me out on this one. African culture is very male dominated. The husband is king, he pays what is called lobola, to his in-laws before he can wed. This lobola used to be heads of cattle but has evolved into cash. $10,000US is not unheard of. A LARGE sum of money for the average black man. So in reality he buys his wife, owns her like property. In most of the cultures it is also acceptable to have more than 1 common law wife and a husband considers it his right to have sex outside the marraige. Most black males also refuse to wear a condom.<br /><br />Given the above, you can see that it is not aids education that will bring about a changes. Whole cultures have to change in order for this to work and it takes decades for that to happen, so Nate yes they do hear but their culture tells them differently. Also, the white man is not seen as a saviour from above, a man who walks on water, for all they care the white man probably invented aids as a tool to supress them.<br /><br />That's why it is so significant for a man of Mandela's stature to publically anounce that his son died of aids. <br /><br />Sorry about the long post..
 

oddjob

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Rudeafrican, I re-read my post to be certain that I have no idea how I assumed anything about your character. I thought we were talking about Mandela.......Wait!...is it you Manny?<br /><br />For the record, I was all gitty about Mandela just like the others mentioned by JB long ago. It was not until the last 10 years that he began to make outrageous comments that change my veiw of him. HE...formed my opinion of him. Life goes on.. :)
 

rudeafrican

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

"N Mandela should also be remebered a leader who didn't give the US the benefit of the doubt when so many natioins within the UN took a stance against the US' post 911 mission to identify and act against global terror."<br /><br />_________________________________________________<br /><br />OB, your statement above is also totally off the mark. Read this link.<br /> Mandela supports Bush in Afghanistan
 

ob

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Originally posted by rudeafrican:<br /> .<br /> Also, the white man is not seen as a saviour from above, a man who walks on water, for all they care the white man probably invented aids as a tool to supress them.
That's it.Why didn't I think of that.Same mentality as Farrachan.The US must have planted the aids virus over in Africa right after the US goverment planted crack cocaine in our inner cities to keep the "black man" down.I hope you're depiction of the US'"white man" is different from your above comment.<br /><br />Customs are just that.Customs.Not genetic instincts.That's what separates man from animals.Your comment that educatioin won't help in getting a grip on the aids epidemic in Africa because of long lived customs is oppresive in itself.The citizens of the US practice more protected sex today than ever before in the wake of education on the topic.Are you infering that the African people can't do the same if educated about the dangers otherwise?Perhaps your goverment is the one that doesn't give a rats a$$ about their own people.
 

aspeck

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

ob, until you have lived in a culture where things are so engrained through the years, it is very hard to understand. You can educate, and they will know, but deep down, they also know what their culture tells them is right. And when their families and friends are doing it, and giving them a hard time for not, it is very easy for culture to take presidence over education.<br /><br />A well educated lady, the wife (actually the second wife, he is married to 2 and has a concubine as well) of a very prosperous business man, will sit down and talk to me about snakes, and how there bones hold poison, so if you kill one, you must bury it. If you don't, you will step on it and die.<br /><br />She will tell me about people who were troubling them, and turned into snakes and came into their house to do them harm.<br /><br />She is afraid of wall jeckles (lizard type animals) because they are evil spirits that come into your house and spy on you. They will also enter your mouth when you are sleeping and kill you.<br /><br />Now, the educated part of her knows these are not true. I have show here scientic reports. But it is what her ancesters believed, so she must believe them also.<br /><br />Without a paradigm shift, education alone will not change the being. There must be a change of heart. A reason to believe differently. And family is so important, that death is better than to disgrace the family.<br /><br />Okay, I am rambling now, but I hope you see that education alone will not change circumstances. But there is hope! I have seen changes, and am seeing changes, in the lives of men and women on a daily basis (not a one time experience, but changes brought about over time). There is hope. Let us not get tired in doing what is right.
 

mikeandronda

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Its hard to believe that these people really do believe some of the stuff they do.......They are not stupid, it is ignorance that causes this. There are things we as Americans believe whole heartedly that in 100 or 200 yrs from now will make people laugh. Its a different world over there so for any of us who are not there its tough to understand how they can think we (USA) sent aids there but I bet in there hearts they believe we did.
 

ob

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

I understand where your coming from aspeck as to the ingrained cultural traits of people.I haven't lived abroad,but I've visited many different countries during my military career.I just hope you can understand where I'm coming from.Hard facts can be instilled into culture by the people they trust most.Their own.Education can't be considered an ineffective tool just because it takes a bit longer to kick in.It's hard for the US to assist when so many want to shoot the messenger.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

It seems to me that they are trying to educate the wrong people down yonder.<br /><br />Maybe if they would educate the "leaders" as to how bad it is then the "leaders" could tell the people how bad it is and then maybe it would get better.<br />I dunno, I'm just a dumb country boy.
 

ob

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

I got the same mentality on the subject that you do SBN.I guess it's ingrained. ;)
 

aspeck

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

I understand where you are coming from, ob, and I guess that is what gives me the best hope for Ghana. Right now they have a re-elected president that knows what is happening, and wants to do the right thing. I do not know the man personally, but he is best friends, and a close confidant to one of the men on our board of directors. This country has made vast improvements in the 4 years he has been in office. We are hoping for 4 years like the last ones, and then another positive election to keep the ball rolling.<br /><br />Change needs to start in 2 places for it to truly be effective, in my opinion. Change needs to come from the leadership down - if the leadership doesn't lead, how are the people going to follow. But it also must come at the grass roots - because if the people don't see the benefit of change, they aren't going to follow.<br /><br />That is why it takes many and all kinds to effect change, wherever we are.
 

ob

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

aspeck ,I wish for the best outcome possible.However long it may take.
 

aspeck

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

By the way, that is why our Training Centre is primarily for the LEADERS of the community, churches, etc. So we can teach them to teach others. So you see, we are on the same page afterall!
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Originally posted by aspeck:<br /> By the way, that is why our Training Centre is primarily for the LEADERS of the community, churches, etc. So we can teach them to teach others. So you see, we are on the same page afterall!
Yea speck, great minds think alike me guess. ;)
 

NathanY

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

So from what I gather from this post is that they are not going to change. Thats fine with me. But knowing that, why do we keep sending money over there for it? <br /><br />rudeafrican said:<br />In most of the cultures it is also acceptable to have more than 1 common law wife and a husband considers it his right to have sex outside the marraige. Most black males also refuse to wear a condom.<br /><br /><br />So, they have no self control? So they are the equivelent of animals? No wonder they are dying at phenominal rates. Kinda like bugs that see a blue light, they cant help it, they just fly into it and zzzzzaaaaapppp!
 

rudeafrican

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Re: Mandella's son "Kicks The Bucket"

Woa what hostility. This is my last post on this thread, just want to set the record straight.<br />I'll set it out point by point in no particular order so I don't leave anything out.<br /><br />1. If you do a search on all my previous posts, I've always supported Bush and his war against terror and the war in Iraq. In the end the world will be a better place since that pos Hussein is no longer there.<br />2. I've got no beef with oddjob or ob. They passed some remarks about a well respected gentleman and I defended him, being a fellow South African. I still maintain that he supported the war on terror but had major issues with Iraq, views which I don't share with him.<br /><br />3. I'm a white South African, Irish descendant like most of you and yes ob, my perception of the US white man is very different from that of a black South African. As you noticed, I said white man and I include myself. I also have family in the US and am in the process of immigrating there myself.<br /><br />4. Believe it or not, Mandela has probably the most favorable views on the US and it's leaders than any other black leader in this country. We have daily rethoric sprouted by our other "fearless leaders" about the evil USA. That's why I made a point of defending the only pragmatic leader we have.<br /><br />5. As Aspeck confirmed, the black culture is hugely influential in their daily lives. I am however not trying to say that aids education will not eventually have an effect, I'm trying to point out why it hasn't worked as yet. Take an example, our Minister of Health, herself a qualified medical doctor, states publically that aids is caused by malnutrition etc and not by a virus. Can you now see the HUGE task that awaits Africa?<br />6. I totally agree with all the statements that the black leadership will be the ones that start the change in attitude, that's why I posted that everybody is happy about Mandela anouncing his son died from aids. Other leaders sweep these things under the carpet, hide the cause of death as it is seen as a shame.<br /><br />I do apologise if I seem to be pushing this issue. I must admit that what got me uptight was the callous headline of this thread. Imagine it was saying "Ronald Reagen kicked the bucket". I'm sure it would have peeved some of you folk of as well. Catch y'all later.
 
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