lync and synce confusion , please help

[F_R]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

OK, guess I'll jump in here and give my 2c. I avoided it because 1995 is a bit new for me, and I don't want to give bad advice. HOWEVER, the procedure on an older motor is this:

1. Make sure all carburetor throttle shafts begin to open at precisely the same time. Adjust linkage between the carbs to achieve this if necessary.

2. Disconnect the remote cable to get it out of the way.

3. Move the throttle cam so that the embossed mark aligns with the roller. The roller should just begin moving at this point. If it does not, loosen the screw retaining the roller arm to the center carburetor throttle shaft, and rotate the roller arm back or forth to achieve just starting to move when they align. Re-tighten the screw and recheck operation.

4. Connect a timing light and start the engine. Move timer lever back or forth to achieve a certain specified pick-up degrees. See, that is what I don't know for that motor. There may be a decal???? Example: In 1972 it was 8 degrees. Adjust the idle speed screw so that the specified degrees holds with lever against the idle speed screw.

5. Stop motor, and check the cam to carburetor mark position with the throttle against the idle speed stop. Roller should be centered on the embossed mark. If not, then remove the horizontal link between the throttle lever and the cam, and adjust the length so that the alignment is achieved. Reconnect the link.

6. Start motor, and adjust idle speed screw for correct RPM, in gear, on a boat, on the lake. Again, I don't know the spec speed. In 1972 it was 650 RPM

7. Ok if the full advance screw was messed with, you will also have to adjust the full spark advance screw. Let's hope nobody messed with that. You haven't, have you?

8. Reconnect throttle cable and adjust the cable to fit the motor. NEVER readjust the motor to fit the cable!!!!

Hope this is clear. Good luck. BTW, note that certified outboard technicians earn their pay. Everybody assumes they are crooks. Not fair.

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

ok F-R here goes

no 1 yep perfect
no 2 yes they are off the engine and out the way.
no 3 yes this again is dead right
no 4 yes done that mine is supposed to be 4 degrees
no 5 ok done that BUT, to have this main lever against the idle stop screw at the bottom, means the linkage at the top
will be atleast 1/2 inch away from idle speed screw pushing on the spring, and as soon as the cable starts to push the main lever the
cam will move the roller and will send the carbs opening before the timing gets advanced !!!!!

is that correct ?
because thats what happenes if i put my main lever on the idle stop screw at the bottom.

i went out the back and disconnected everything and started again.
this time i put everything on like you said, it all goes great untill the mention of the idle stop screw at the bottom
having to touch main lever at the same time as the roller next to the mark on the cam.

to be using the idle stop screw at the bottom, the top arm that advances the spark is away from the advance by 1/2 inch.
now this lever/rod attaches to the cam with the mark that is touching the throttle roller.
so as soon as the 1/2 gap starts to decrease the cam moves the roller etc, so we get a fair bit of movement before
the advance gets pushed forward.

confusing or what ?????????? and no the max spark advance stop screw has not been touched at all, thank god.

i agree good marine technicians earn their money,
but trying to find a good one is the problem !!!!!

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Can you post a closer picture of your 1/2 inch gap and the top of the throttle lever
Have you taken the airbox off to actually see when the carb starts opening not just when the roller starts moving?

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

yeah no problem with a pic
and yes i do have the air box off, i know where the butterlys open and close for sure.

its a total imposibilty to have the spark advance move before the roller moves if the throttle uses the
idle stop screw at the bottom

youl see with this gap the lever has to move atleast 1/2 inch before it moves the spark advance.
now during this 1/2 inch of movement, the roller is being moved and moves the butterflys.


here below is the pic you want and a close up of the gap.


phill

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

So your timing in that current pic is at the correct 4 deg BTDC? (with the half inch gap)
Have you checked your TDC flywheel matchs up with actual TDC ie the flywheel is lined up with crankshaft correctly

 

[durban]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

change the spring around . put it in the inside where you have that gap this should change . & as the timing trigger hits the stop under the fly wheel when the cam for the butterfly moves the linkage will then start compressing the spring at the trigger & the cam will continue opening the butterfly's . this is what i would try , the spring is a compression spring as the cam moves it will start compressing the spring to a piont where the trigger hits the rubber stop then the cam will move more as the spring gets compressed & at the same time open the butter fly's further k

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Yes not only checked it but checked it again and again and again.
and also checked it again yesterday.

the older 3 cylinder engines before about 1992 had the rod from lever to cam in a different place and it set up differently.
these 920cc engines have a few differences tothe older ones.
i think its something to do with the quickstart changing the timing itself at start up.

it realy is strange, this is what has been making me think i have been doing everything wrong.
i cannot get the carbs to stay still while the spark advance moves with all the rods attached.
so the only way for spark to move first is to have the gap closed.
this means the idle screw is now not touching anything at all. i just cant have it both ways.

UNLESS these particular engines have the carbs opening slightly BEFORE the spark advances !!!!!!!!!!!!


i am stumped, and now on the lookout for a good outboard mechanic who can fix this heap of crap for me.



phill

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

But the spring is in its correct place at the moment.
and by putting it in the gap it would then be advancing the spark before its meant to.
this can cause as many problems as it has already.
i need to just know what is the correct way..... with the gap ? or no gap
somebody out there must have same engine and can see theirs or atleast have a genuine book to let me know this simple thing.

cant get a book here yet, seems like its gonna take ages to get one sent over.

i think this is the last time ill ever own a omc engine, i came from the dark side via suzuki's, but will definitely be
going back to black in future.

ive had 3 terrific mercs, 65hp a 80hp and 60hp, never had any problems with those at all.

 

[durban]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

remember the spark on this motor will detonate at 17 to 18 degrees before tdc so its quite possible for the trigger to move to the 17 degrees fist then the butterfly opens

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Hi Durban.
Not exactly sure what you mean here.
the butterflys open as soon as the roller starts to move,this is the way it works.
look at the plate/cam ,its not like the ones on the older original engines like the big orange Rad Con frankenlooper, the lever is
even set in a different place.
with the older engine the top main lever was a direct rod to the advance control, on this its got that soppy spring to pull it back.
now to have this spring to pull back proves the carbs must open slightly before the timing advances !!!!!!!!!!
or it would be a solid rod like the older ones.

this is why im confused, you read that the advance starts before the carbs open, then look at the engine and see its
just not possible to work like that if you have it with the 1/2 inch gap at the top.
ive looked at old pics of this engine when it was running ok (ok ish) and the gap was there !!!!!!!.

no books ive read (still cannot locate the proper one) mention about the gap when the lever is hitting the idle screw.
But some pictures do show the gap !!!!!!!

now if i do put the lever touching the idle screw, and set the roller on its exact single mark on the plate, the butterfys would be
open around 1/3rd throttle befor spark advance even moves !!!!!!! this just dont seem to be right at all.

something i am missing that has to be very simple is going on here, yet the engine is getting even harder to start with
everything i try to do to it.

i need to get the right manual and start completely fresh on this.
today im going to strip down the spare carbs AGAIN and make 100% sure they are right, i know they are but something is wrong.
i even had the middle carb coughing and spluttering at me last night trying to keep it running low speed.

if i get it up and over 2,000 rpm it goes great !!!!!!!!!!!! so max spark advance is fine obviously, this also shows high speed on
carbs is ok as well.




phill.

 

[schematic]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Hi Durban.
no books ive read (still cannot locate the proper one) mention about the gap when the lever is hitting the idle screw.
But some pictures do show the gap !!!!!!!

now if i do put the lever touching the idle screw, and set the roller on its exact single mark on the plate, the butterfys would be
open around 1/3rd throttle befor spark advance even moves !!!!!!! this just dont seem to be right at all.

phill.

Hi Phill

the gap is normal. The idle stop screw is not used. some engines do not have them. set your cable length so you have "some gap" once the idle timing is set. too much gap will limit max throttle travel

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

cheers schematic
that makes real good sense as every pic im seeing of these engines shows a gap, i looked at my older opics of the
engine and it had a gap before when running reasonable.
now just have to sort out a couple of bits to get it back to normal running,its being a real P.I.T.A to be honest.
fuel pump has now given out as well, it just seems like its doomed to be a low hours engine that gets locked away forever.


phill

 

[schematic]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Whats wrong with the fuel pump?

 

[F_R]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Sorry, I'm totally unfamiliar with that spring gizmo at the top. Older motors didn't have that. So, I'll have to defer to anybody that knows.

 

[durban]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

set the timing at 17 degrees this is when the spark should go off & at 17 degrees the idle stop screw should be touching the rubber stop & the butter fly should then still be closed if not you need to make the adjustment on the bracket where the linkages join the center carbs there is a screw in bracket with a little round bush on the bracket does have a slot in . to do the adjustment for the butter fly , the important thing here is that the trigger must be at 17 degrees & against the rubber stop & the carb butterfly should be closed . by making the adjustment on center bracket while the trigger is set at 17 degrees & against the rubber you can adjust the butterfly's without the cam to the closed position i would remove the cam while makeing the adjustment to close butterfly then once they are set then replace the cam & at the same timr adjust the linkage that attaches the butterfly bare in mind that at all times the trigger has to be at 17 degrees & touching the rubber stop as the butterfly's should only open once it is in this position

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Hi schematicthe fuel pump just aint upto much.
i did change it over ages aga for old type one and that worked great for a while, i just went to clean it out yesterday and
the 2 little bits of metal inside the fuel pump just fell to bits and it realy is worn out etc, so tried to use fuel side only
of the original VRO pump.(that was suspect of being bad now i remember )
But think thats not giving what it should,so ill try to buy another brand new (old syle) pump today, or atleast see if
i can get parts for this one to rebuild it.

F_R
your right the older ones just had the rod to bring it back.
These have the silly spring and a bit of plastic (cheapness thing i reckon)


Durban
are you trying to say my timming should be 17 degree's at Idle before the butterflys move at all
No No No that is not right.
the 17 degree's is for the timming once its fully advanced to maximum.
But the maximum setting has NOT been disturbed at all on this engine and top end is fine..




phill....

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Ok now this Engine is realy getting on my nerves .



I now have a 14 lb sledge hammer sitting very close by that is looking very tempting .

I will start from very beggining of todays escapades with this bucket of SH$$ :facepalm:

The carbs are 100% spoteless, no dirt at all anywhere in the carbs or the pipes going from the fuel pump etc.
Fuel is Very fresh and oil mix at 50-1 using 92 octane and quicksilver 2 stroke oil.
nicely mixed in a plastic gallon can that was scrupoulously cleaned for testing purposes.
fuel pipes all new, new fuel bulb as well, all fittings nice and tight with no air leaks.
compression is top 153 middle 149 bottom 152.. this is with throttle wide open and cold engine. looks pretty good to me ?

Spark plugs new as per manufacturer (not ngk) and gapped at the right gap 30 .
all spark gaps jumping well over 7/16ths infact jump an inch easy,nice bright blue spark.
all leads good from coils as well,no leakage in the leads.
all carb butterflys fully closed and carbs all synced as 1 unit.
remote cables disconnected.
shift rod from main throttle arm to carb roller disconnected.
Mixture screws in the right side of carbs are at around 2 turns open from lightly but fully seated.
(this is how they originaly were, but obviously could be wrong).!!!!!
fuel pumped upto carbs and definitely getting in as opened each drain screw to check and all is well.
re prime fuel bulb.

switch on engine ignition wait about 5 seconds with key pushed in and turn it over....
engine spinning at 750rpms and not starting.
spinning over so nice i have water from the tell tale shooting out and soaking my shorts (looks like ive wet myself ):grumpy:

take out all 3 spark plugs (slightly wet tips) and ground them all put timming light on number 1 plug lead and spin it with ignition on.
check timing at the timing mark and it shows nice and steady at 4 degree btc.

Put plugs back in and try to start again, nothing much happens for about 2 minutes cranking then might get it to fire up.
the quick start keeps it running untill that goes off then it just dies again and wait about 1 minute to start again.

Now this time it starts and i move the throttle roller to get it over 2500rpm ,it struggles to get there but once over 2000
it runs better and then realy smooth from 2500rpm to maximum and sounds like plenty of power.
anything under 2000rpm and the centre carb starts sort of spitting and back firing type of thing then engine dies.
cannot keep it running slow at all for anything over about 10 seconds and its rough, very rough at this speed.

ive taken the carb manifold off and checked reeds for any signs of cracks or breakages and dirt
not found anything wrong with reeds or reedblock etc..
got good seal on the reed block housing to engine and to carbs.

taken off flywheel and checked magnets for movement , all fine.
checked all stator wires, all fine, checked every nut bolt and washer up under the flywheel all fine.

checked that the number 1 piston lines up perfectly with the flywheel tdc mark, all perfect.
checked carbs again and all clean no dirt. plenty of fuel getting to all 3 carbs.

check idle timing again with 3 plugs out and starter spinning at 800rpm and timing shows steady 4 degree btdc.
and then it does exactly the same again

all tests done with engine in water butt and water up high enough to get waterpump working fine.

not had chance of putting the motor in gear as it just wont run slow even in nuetral long enough.

now what am i missing ?

(by the way, Used a good fuel pump from another engine for all the tests again ,so i know its not fuel pump issue)



phill

 

[fishfeatures]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

now what am i missing ?



phill

Compression no.s ??

 

[phillnjack2]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

Here ya go fishfeatures
(I did put them up earlier though)
Here it is again
compression test figures.
153 psi top
149 psi middle
152 psi bottom
this was cold engine with throttle wide open .spinning over at 850 rpm for 4 seconds.

compression is very good, and with a warm engine after a run i get 156 -154 -156

proving a decent piston seal, ive seen lots of these with nowhere near as good compression still running ok.






phill

 

[schematic]

Re: lync and synce confusion , please help

phill

this motor is notorious for power pack issues. From quick start to double firing.....


check it closely for intermittent firing when it runs poor along with double firing on the flywheel.