liberal utopia

Tinkerer II

Cadet
Joined
May 2, 2005
Messages
17
Re: liberal utopia

Originally posted by eeboater:<br /> With the United States being controlled 100% by the libs... I say, Austrailia is looking awfully damn nice...<br /><br />
I don't know how to break this gently, but the fact is that our current national government is run by our Liberal Party!<br /><br />Our Liberal Party is actually our conservative party, like your Republicans.<br /><br />The Liberals usually can't get quite enough votes to govern on their own so they're usually in coalition governments with the National Party. It isn't really a national party because it represents only rural and primary production interests. Its members of parliament come only from rural electorates, while the bulk of voters here live in the cities. <br /><br />The other main party is the Labor Party. It agrees with the Liberal Party on most things, but they both like to think they're really different to each other. <br /><br />There's our Australian Democrats Party, who think they're our real liberals but who began life breaking away from the conservative Liberal Party. <br /><br />There's also the Greens, who are actually all white people so far, and they're our real liberals.<br /><br />So: Our Liberal Party is a conservative party which governs with the support of the National Party which represents only a small portion of the national electorate. They are opposed by the Labor Party, most of whose elected members haven't done any serious labour in their lives. Our Democrats who think they are true liberals are really deluded renegades from the conservative Liberal Party. Our Greens are the real liberals but they can't call themselves the Liberal Party because the conservatives have already called themselves that. <br /><br />That should be pretty clear. :D
 

OLDSPUD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
348
Re: liberal utopia

OK Skinny, <br />having read and not properly <br />contemplated everything you have said yet, I still believe in the average American. I am in no way ready to throw in the towel.<br />I believe in free market, and the other freedoms I enjoy now (like expressing these points of thought).<br />I don't want a "bunch of new laws" to control my business or any of the functions of our economy. I don't think any new laws will help, I do belive this may come to a point of crisis (ya even bigger than it is) and we as Americans will have to finally come together and do something other than point fingers.<br />I am so sick of the current media outlets, I don't watch any news on TV or read any newspapers. I go to many different websites and read and decide what I think is true or untrue. I am not smart enough to argue effectivly against our founders or even you.<br />What I wanted to do is see if there was anyone out there who could represent any thought as to why the press and all hate GW.<br />I don't know enough about him other than to say I think he is doing what he thinks is best, I have listened to his prior opponents, and have decided that I trust him over them. <br /><br />What other choices does one have than the current two party system?<br /><br />People I deal with everyday (local developers, bankers, lawyers, realtors, and consumers) are great people. They are optomistic, and trying their best to enjoy life and make an honest living. I like my customers and believe in them. I am very optomistic about my future, and my kids future. <br /><br />I don't see the problems of the country to be ones that can't be overcome. I think we could go forward in many different ways. I believe that the current democratic party is heading more into socialism than the repubs. Just by their proposals, I am concerned about their desired direction.<br /><br />Well I am all over the place, tired, and ready to go to bed. Thanks for having this civil discussion.<br /><br />Spud
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
12,072
Re: liberal utopia

Originally posted by Tinkerer II:<br />
Originally posted by eeboater:<br /> With the United States being controlled 100% by the libs... I say, Austrailia is looking awfully damn nice...<br /><br />
I don't know how to break this gently, but the fact is that our current national government is run by our Liberal Party!<br /><br />Our Liberal Party is actually our conservative party, like your Republicans.<br /><br />The Liberals usually can't get quite enough votes to govern on their own so they're usually in coalition governments with the National Party. It isn't really a national party because it represents only rural and primary production interests. Its members of parliament come only from rural electorates, while the bulk of voters here live in the cities. <br /><br />The other main party is the Labor Party. It agrees with the Liberal Party on most things, but they both like to think they're really different to each other. <br /><br />There's our Australian Democrats Party, who think they're our real liberals but who began life breaking away from the conservative Liberal Party. <br /><br />There's also the Greens, who are actually all white people so far, and they're our real liberals.<br /><br />So: Our Liberal Party is a conservative party which governs with the support of the National Party which represents only a small portion of the national electorate. They are opposed by the Labor Party, most of whose elected members haven't done any serious labour in their lives. Our Democrats who think they are true liberals are really deluded renegades from the conservative Liberal Party. Our Greens are the real liberals but they can't call themselves the Liberal Party because the conservatives have already called themselves that. <br /><br />That should be pretty clear. :D
Gee whiz Tinkerer, I'd heard things were upside down and backwards DownUnder, now you've given us the proof. :D ;) <br /><br />Maybe the reason you butchered that hex/allen bolt was 'cause you were trying to turn it out the wrong way! :p
 

Tinkerer II

Cadet
Joined
May 2, 2005
Messages
17
Re: liberal utopia

<br />Maybe the reason you butchered that hex/allen bolt was 'cause you were trying to turn it out the wrong way! :p [/QB]
Nah, the previous owner did that. Probably a conservative Liberal Party member. They're way too tight and screw up everything for us liberals. :D <br /><br />When I say I'm a "liberal" I don't want it to be confused with the term "small 'l' liberals" used by members of the Liberal Party to distinguish themselves as less conservative "liberals" from the more conservative "Liberals" in the Liberal Party. <br /><br />I hope that's helped clarify anything that wasn't already clear about our conservative Liberal Party. ;)
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,719
Re: liberal utopia

I'll give it a shot on why many dislike GW.<br /><br />Mostly because it is hard to tell what he means when he says something, and I get the feeling we are dealing with a used car salesman every time he opens his mouth.<br /><br />War--This war in Iraq was long planned by the neo-cons in the mid 90's as a grand scheme to somehow use our overwhelming power to somehow bring democracy to the mid east. It was published and available on the internet long before 9/11. In it, they admitted it would be a hard sell lacking a "Pearl Harbor type Event". Along comes 9/11.<br /><br />It was sold to us as a necessary part of the war on terror. It was not.<br /><br />Now whatever you think about the neo-cons grand plans, and whether or not you support them, that is not how it was portrayed. Or how it was sold.<br /><br />Or the huge tax cuts to stimulate the economy. It was a consumer led recovery, and the cuts did little to stimulate consumers. There was lots of money available at low interest rates for investment before--which is what these tax cuts were targeted at, so while some individuals profited from them, our deficit grew with precious little help to the general economy.<br /><br />I can go on and on, but virtually every policy GW comes up with, you can trace the origins back to Karl Rove, and big campaign contributors. And political advantage.<br /><br />But perhaps the biggest reason--He seems to be playing checkers in this world's chess game, and in my view, that is dangerous.
 

Nos4r2

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Messages
1,533
Re: liberal utopia

Hey, at least you guys only have a hillbilly in charge- We've got Pennywise the Clown in the UK, though hopefully not much longer.<br /> It's election day here... here's hoping...
 

eeboater

Commander
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
2,644
Re: liberal utopia

Originally posted by Tinkerer II:<br />
That should be pretty clear. :D
LMAO!!!! I am absolutely confused!!!! Just kidding, I think I get what you were getting at...<br /><br /> :D <br /><br />Sean
 

eeboater

Commander
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
2,644
Re: liberal utopia

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br /> The current two party system is responsible for most if closely not all of the problems. Instead of trusting in supreme ideas and sound logic both the right and left start engaging in abstract.<br />Surely both the left and right are to blame and both are in total and complete denial. You have "ditto heads" on the left who worship Howard Dean and Michael Moore who spit at the "ditto heads" on the so called right marching locked lipped with with Rush and his parrot brigade.<br /><br />There is a lot of debate about politics here. The full range of baloney. So called Conservatives that endear the term "neocon" with pride. Where meddleing in others affairs is as honerable as the hypocracy is ignored.<br />So called Liberals who cry for honest debate and end up being party line parrots. It's expected from the left to subvert a moral republic to a carefree irresponsible utopian commune.<br /> So called Libertarians, who embrace their beloved Social Security ponzi scheme. <br /><br />Trouble is the blame game gets pushed to big business and welfare deadbeats while the people prefer ignorance, complacentcy and pre-packaged salad.<br />It's real easy to feel comfortable owning a couple of businesses in a red state and feel like the sun doesn't set on your man in Washington. It's equally easy when your dot com bubble pays huge dividends while your cool dude hero in Washington lies under oath and erodes moral responsibility. <br />Surely it must be easy, because you still think the Republicans or the Democrats have the answer. Both sides wish and wait for dialog, as if you think anything close to a dialog for solution would be something other then smoke, mirrors, a scheme or shell game.<br /><br />Again, both sides are so adept at blaming the other side instead of the reality that both are equally to blame. Forget about the denial of blue and red politics. In as much that black and white is truth and gray is a manipulation of truth, the Democrats and Repulicans are colored the same shade of gray. <br /><br />Lets talk oil. <br />Both partys in power support our dependence on buying it from repressive regimes. Some of those we are dependent on qualify as our enemy. This is a basic breach in our national security. National Security is firmly their basic responsibility. All during the '70's and '80's we were told of capped wells here that weren't economically feasible to market. So if $50 plus a barrel doesn't make it happen, embrace your denial.<br />Solution; Maybe arming ourselves with knowledge and quit being "ditto heads" would be a good start. We aren't even called citizens anymore, we're consumers.<br /> <br />"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none." - Thomas Jefferson, 1801 inaugural address.<br />"The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson<br /><br /><br />Lets talk war.<br />Both partys made it policy to be involved in the affairs of other soverign nations. Usually playing one against the other while stabbing each in the back. We'd support and prop up vicious suppresive dictatorships solely for our own needs. We'd boast about helping the poor in need while making the murderers of those same poor, very rich.<br />If this doesn't breed terrorism, embrace your denial some more.<br />Solution; Our foriegn policy should be to mind our own business. Especially when it comes to embracing freedom. As evidenced in Iraq, freedom is only deserved when the oppressed are truely willing to fight for it oin their own. Freedom is cheap to the oppressed when someone else has to win it for them.<br />Our founders had plenty to say about war and minding our own business.<br /> <br />"People and nations are forged in the fires of adversity." "Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will be America's heart, her benedictions and prayers, but she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator of her own." John Adams<br /><br />"America... well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extraction, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force... She might become dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit." - John Quincy Adams; Address, 4 July 1821<br /><br />"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all... The Nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest ... Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances, with any portion of the foreign world." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 17 Sept. 1796.<br /><br />Lets talk taxes.<br />Both partys represent their corporate freinds very well. In fact they're shameless pro$titutes.<br />Oil and pipeline producers in the Fortune 500, favorite constituents of the Republicans in the 3 years 2001-2003 collectively paid only 13.3% of their record profits in taxes. That's the lowest tax rate for a citizen struggleing below average wages. The President recently signed additional tax cuts and incentives for them.<br />News, entertainment and film industry (Disney, Time/Warner), favorites of the Democrats have special rules and write-offs that total $590 million over the next 10 years without sunset. Repulican "ditto heads" sure play up paltry tax cuts given by GW. But in reality it's more like tossing a crumb to the rabble. And the Democrats aren't shy about letting us know they want it back and more. Fact is, if the Republicans were serious about what they preach that tax cuts are good for the economy, then eliminating payroll taxes would give us the best economy in history.<br />For certain, every April 15th we all embrace our denial.<br /><br />Lets talk economy.<br />Both partys proactively practice authorize and spend now, let future generations carry the debt burden.<br />America has become much more a socialistic economy, and less a free-market one. Right now 68% of the federal budget is consumed by social spending and interest on the debt resulting from it. FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DEBT of $7.4 TRILLION = $25,107 per PERSON, and rising. This means each man, woman and child owes $6,434 in federal debt to foreign interests. Peacetime debt moved from about 10% of the economy's GDP to the current historic peace-time record six times higher - - or, 6 times faster than the economy expanded. This government and it's citizens just carry larger credit card balances, that's all.<br />If this makes you feel more wealthy, again, embrace your denial<br />Solution; Force the government to balance it's budget. <br />Again plenty was said about this subject.<br /><br />"I place economy among the first and most important of republic virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared." -Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816<br /><br />"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson<br /><br />Lets talk Social Security.<br />Both partys are well exercised in corruption, lies and theft. HOW CAN THEY SAY THEY WANT TO SAVE SOCIAL SECURITY WHEN THEY ARE RAIDING IT? As of the end of fiscal year 2004, $1,453 billion ($1.5 Trillion) of in-coming surpluses from workers had been siphoned-off to-date from the Social Security trust fund - a 340% increase of $1.2 trillion since year-end 1991 - every penny spent on non-pension stuff. ($139 billion of that was extracted last year).<br />Social Security is a Ponzi scheme and just another tax. <br />Trusting proven thieves and criminals is certainly denial.<br />Solution; It's important to enforce the Constitution and immediately remove the power that was UnConstitutionally given to it...in all matters.<br /><br />"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce. ... The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives and liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement and prosperity of the State." - James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 25<br /> <br />"With respect to the words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." - James Madison - 'father of the Constitution.<br /><br />Now let talk further about a solution.<br />I think it's to late. I'll prove it by stateing most here after reading this most "ditto heads" would paint me a whacko.<br />Today both sides are looking in wrong place for solutions. Can't see the forest for the trees.<br />I hear everyday as people beat their chests spewing; "This country is a Constitutional Republic!" Wrong, it's not anymore.<br />"We are a free trade economy!" Wrong, we aren't anymore.<br />"We are a government of the people and by the people!" Wrong again, you work for the govenment as tax payers and serfs.<br /><br />At the close of the Constitutional Conventional in 1787, Benjamin Franklin said that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention gave the people “a Republic, if you can keep it.” We should apologize to Mr. Franklin. It is obvious that the Republic is gone, for we are wallowing in a pure democracy against which the Founders had strongly warned. Thank the Republicans and the Democrats you guys are proudly argueing for.<br /><br />Truth is, we're all a bread line away from begging Big Brother take care of us and we're all looking forward to each and every crumb that is tossed our way.<br />And your precious Second Ammendment won't mean squat when you're looking down the rocket tubes of a Cobra gunship.
Hey Skinny..... perhaps we could get some <br /><br />
1392105-cliffsnotes.jpg
<br /><br /><br />Sean :D :D :D
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: liberal utopia

Well let's see:<br /><br />There would be no personal responsibility. Everybody would be a "victim"<br /><br />There would be no religion, especially Christianity.<br /><br />Drugs would be legal<br /><br />Euthanasia would be legal<br /><br />Medicine would be socialized (good thing we'll be able to kill off the old and infirm)<br /><br />Organization like the North American Man Boy Love Association would be free to operate without interference.<br /><br />We would apologize to terrorists for all our awful deeds and give them whatever they wanted.<br /><br />We would give North Korea the green light to invade South Korea by making it clear we are no longer going to be involved in such matters<br /><br />We would give China the green light to invade Taiwan for the same reason.<br /><br />Eventually, the State would take control of most private businesses since the evil capitalists can't be trusted<br /><br />How's a 75% tax rate sound?<br /><br />All the social programs anyone can think of would be enacted.<br /><br />The armed forces would be virtually non-existent (we won't need them!)<br /><br />Gay marriage would be legal and the lifestyle glorified.<br /><br />Your parental rights would be severely restricted.<br /><br />Do I even need to go on?
 

OLDSPUD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
348
Re: liberal utopia

Skinny andPW, I do have a response, but no time to type and form my thoughts, I have a huge closing day, many commercial deals today. I need to think about escrow agreements rather than politics, but I will see you tonight.<br /><br />Spud<br /><br />PS: Keep underestimating GW, its working.
 

mrbscott19

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
603
Re: liberal utopia

Originally posted by spudbartlett:<br />PS: Keep underestimating GW, its working. <br />
Don't you mean misunderestimate??<br /> :D :D <br /><br /><br />MAKE THE PIE HIGHER <br />by George W. Bush (All actual quotes)<br /><br />I think we all agree, the past is over. <br />This is still a dangerous world. <br />It's a world of madmen and uncertainty <br />and potential mental losses. <br /><br />Rarely is the question asked <br />Is our children learning? <br />Will the highways of the Internet become more few? <br />How many hands have I shaked? <br /><br />They misunderestimate me. <br />I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity. <br />I know that the human being and the fish can coexist. <br />Families is where our nation finds hope, where our wings take dream. <br /><br />Put food on your family! <br />Knock down the tollbooth! <br />Vulcanize society! <br />Make the pie higher! Make the pie higher!
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,719
Re: liberal utopia

Spud,<br /><br />Why do you suggest I underestimate GW?<br /><br />I don't, and clearly he has been successful in selling much of his agenda to the country. Such is life...<br /><br />I simply dont agree with it, or like it very much.<br /><br />And we have the opposition spewing complete garbage, like Ralph's post, that is hardly worth commenting on, except to the extent that if people believe that trip-trap it does indeed shake a persons faith in democracy and the ability of people to self-rule.<br /><br />No one who is that gullible ought to be allowed to vote!
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: liberal utopia

Never confuse being a good or poor public speaker with intelligence. People like Jefferson, Newton, and Virgil all stuttered. <br /><br />The number one fear of most people (above even Death) is public speaking. <br /><br />I've heard more than my share of eloquent speakers who sounded great but said nothing and others who spoke little (or poorly) but conveyed great ideas.<br /><br />I'll just add that it is a documented fact that GW outscored Kerry on their military intelligence tests even though Kerry is a much better public speaker.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: liberal utopia

Hey PW, all you have to do is look as the causes supported by people like George Soros, Moveon.org and the ACLU and that will tell you what the liberal Utopia is. Every point I mentioned can be traced to a position taken by such groups. Self rule? You obviously don't stay in touch with current events.<br /><br />Examples: <br /><br />The ACLU is currently defending NAMBLA in MA<br /><br />The ACLU is currently on a crusade to remove all Christian symbols from society - count the law suits<br /><br />I have heard people like Michael Moore advocate a 75% tax rate<br /><br />Soros openly advocates for the complete legalization of drugs.<br /><br />Kindergarten children in Lexington, MA are being given picture books on homosexuality. A father was arrested when he objected to not being notified as required by law.<br /><br />In Saugus, MA children are being given explicit picture books on AIDs - again without parental notification.<br /><br />A father in Quincy, MA is being charged with a felony for spanking his 12 year old - there were no injuries and DSS even says there is no abuse.<br /><br />Do I really need to go on? I'm living in the Liberal semi-utopia right now!
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: liberal utopia

ACLU terms NAMBLA suit a witch hunt';<br />J. M. LAWRENCE. Boston Herald. Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 2001. pg. 028 <br /><br />Graphic AIDS book draws parents' ire;<br />KEVIN ROTHSTEIN. Boston Herald. Boston, Mass.: May 3, 2005. pg. 006 <br /><br />Lexington school calls cops on dad irate over gay book; <br />Laura Crimaldi. Boston Herald. Boston, Mass.: Apr 28, 2005. pg. 004 <br /><br />DA rips big $ drug-law reform backers;<br />COSMO MACERO JR.. Boston Herald. Boston, Mass.: Oct 28, 2000. pg. 009 <br /><br />Suffolk County District Attorney Ralph Martin yesterday lashed out at the big-money backers of a drug-law reform ballot question, saying billionaire George Soros and other Question 8 supporters ought to show their faces in Massachusetts.<br /><br />"Let them come to Massachusetts and see what ravages their support for this question will ensure," Martin said. "Let them come to the neighborhoods in Dorchester and Roxbury, and in ...<br /><br />I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried!<br /><br />Some people need to stop listening to Air America and start reading the newspaper... :rolleyes:
 

tony779

Cadet
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
Messages
25
Re: liberal utopia

As a member of the military, it always amazes me that people that have no idea always jump up and say that Iraq has no bearing on the war on terror. What is your source for this? CNN, Fox news, ABC, NBC, CBS, some idiot on the internet?
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: liberal utopia

eeboater,<br /><br />You're too young to be that perfectly conservative. Where in heck did you learn that? Your assesment of the Greenie fight was right out of the Clean Cities convention that I attended the last three days. Sad thing is I have to cozy up to some of those knuckleheads to sell my product. Makes me want to puke sometimes, but at least I can throw a little reality their way once in a while. Had a great speaker and his short term take on the energy thing was more coal power plants, longer term is nuclear. And you know what, he is right.<br /><br />Getting the flame retardant suit on . . .
 

eeboater

Commander
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
2,644
Re: liberal utopia

Hey Quiet. Yeah, I know I'm pretty unique for my age. How does the saying go... "if you are young and conservative then you are heartless, if you are old and liberal then you are brainless." In high school I worked in a shoe repair store shining shoes and doing miscellaneous shop duties. The owner of the company was a strong, christian, conservative. My parents really did not discuss politics at all. I heard rumblings every once in a while but nothing that would teach me anything.<br /><br />My job in High School was basically a 3 year education on politics. I was taught what it was like to be a small business owner. What the real motives of the left and right are. What the DEFINITION of the left and right are. And I was taught to think for myself.<br /><br />I almost blew chunks all the times I sat in class during college when the professors spewed blatantly liberal garbage. The thing that was so unnerving was there were all these fresh young minds sucking up this yack like huge sponges. <br /><br />Sean
 
Top