liberal utopia

OLDSPUD

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Nov 13, 2004
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348
I've been thinking about this since the last election (Bush vs Kerry). The campaign season was so divided, I've been thinking, How can someone think such opposite thoughts as I?<br /><br />So, lets say, that if the dems' got the constitution changed and Bill Clinton just won his fourth term, and that the Dems' also controled the House and Senate, What would you guys want to do?<br /><br />What kind of laws would you be pushing for, what changes would you want made?<br /><br />Now you guys have a lot of different people to please re:<br />extreme enviromental groups,<br />PETA,<br />anti capitalist groups,<br />non-military types,<br />anti oil, and so on.<br /><br />What kind of society would I be living in?<br />What kind of economy would we have, market? socialism? Who would I work for, the government? You guys hate big business, and big corporations, who would replace that in your system. Could I believe in God?, or talk about God? <br />Would I be able to pull my boat with one of your hybryd (sp) cars/trucks? How much would gas cost? <br />What kind of military defense systems would the country have. You guys hate the Military as it is now.<br />What would they teach my kids at school? (actually you have already changed that quite a lot)<br />What would my tax rate be, what kind of taxing system would you have? Since we would have universal health care, (Like Canada and the UK), my taxes, I imagine, would be a lot more.<br />What would you do about imigration, and Mexico?<br /><br />I live in fly-over country, a red state. I am quite consertative. I own two Title Insurance Companies. I am starting to make a little money.<br />I grew up in Idaho, worked on a dairy farm. Out here we drive trucks, not because I'm trying to be a red neck, but they are quite handy to have around. My wife drives a Landcrusier (big SUV), she loves it.<br />I studied economics for six years in college, and have worked hard to meet my goals.<br /><br />I am really not kidding about this, I would like to know what you guys would want.<br /><br />Spud
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: liberal utopia

I know this isn't the spirit of your thread, but I think you would be a good person to ask, what exactly is title insurance. From all I've seen, it's a great huge waste of money. My brother bougth some property, the property listed, the property described in all documents, save for the abstract was a good piece of property. The property he actually bought was not developable. The only place it was identified properly was in the final official document, not even in the closing papers. Whe he tried to file a title claim, he was refused. I'm probably no tdescribing it correctly, but the bottom line, he was led to believe, from the realtor to the title insurance company handling the closing (on their officialdocuments) that he was buying one piece of property when in essence he was buying another piece. No one so far, not the bank or the title insurance company has been able to adequately explain this to me. I have bought four title insurance policies so far through mortgages, and refi's. I'm sorry to hijack your thread.
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
12,072
Re: liberal utopia

Typical liberal David L. Evade the question! :p <br /><br />Title insurance has nothing to do with land use.
 

OLDSPUD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
348
Re: liberal utopia

Use of dirt is usually controlled by the local government. Those records are called "zoning". Before buying any property one should check the zoning laws to make sure the use of the dirt fits your desire. I do issue zoning coverage if one wants it. It is out of the normal course of title work, and quite expensive. Smart buyers (usually atty driven) reqire this type of coverage.<br /><br />Some smart buyers (developers), (I know what the libs think about developers)work this backward. They will buy dirt zoned for one use(usually at a much lower price), work with the local gov't and get the zone changed then re-sale the unchanged dirt (zoned differently) for many times the orig purchase price. To not lose in real estate, one needs to do their homework.<br /><br />Spud
 

kenimpzoom

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
4,807
Re: liberal utopia

To sum it up, they have no idea what they would do cause there would be no republicans issues for them to be against.<br /><br />Really when it comes down to it, I dont think there are a lot of differences between the two parties. They both know how to spend my money really well.<br /><br />Ken
 

Skinnywater

Commander
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,065
Re: liberal utopia

What kind of society would I be living in?<br />
Very similar, not much has changed. <br />Same problems and basically the same crowd representing their constituents , big business, their lobbies, and major campaign contributors.
 

snapperbait

Vice Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2002
Messages
5,754
Re: liberal utopia

This one should be good...
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rogerwa

Commander
Joined
Nov 29, 2000
Messages
2,339
Re: liberal utopia

I think France pretty well sums this up..
 

chinakimmie

Recruit
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
1
Re: liberal utopia

I too am a raging Ditto head and those things that Spud mentioned are a concern. Big government means more taxes. I personally, would rather have control over my OWN money,that I earn, rather than having the government tax me and spend MY money on those too lazy to take care of themselves. I believe that those who work for their money are entitled to it.
 

Skinnywater

Commander
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,065
Re: liberal utopia

I too am a raging Ditto head and those things that Spud mentioned are a concern. Big government means more taxes. I personally, would rather have control over my OWN money,that I earn, rather than having the government tax me and spend MY money on those too lazy to take care of themselves. I believe that those who work for their money are entitled to it.
Well maybe we can all learn a little here.<br />Where can you point to facts that show that either party is for smaller government, less taxes, balanced budgets, or you having control over your own money. :confused:
 

Realgun

Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,484
Re: liberal utopia

Well lets see out here in the west we can shoot deer. In the Liberal East we can hit deer with our cars, your choice. :) <br /><br />Ah the smell of cooked Bambi gotta love it!<br /><br />And no matter what they will have to pry my gun away from my cold dead fingers!!!
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,719
Re: liberal utopia

well, let's see.<br /><br />We have Iran and North Korea aqwuiring nuclear weapons and we don't seem to have a clue what to do about it,<br /><br />and Iraq continues in a dangerous mess, and with that crininal Chalabi being appointed Oil minister, <br /><br />and the economy is sputtering and stalling,<br /><br />and the primary agenda item, social security, cannot get traction even with Republicans...<br /><br />I'd use as a strategy inventing a pretend liberal agenda to attack and deflect attention from what's really going on too!<br /><br />Simply because a radical made-up left wing position may not look attractive does not make a radical right wing agenda any more attractive, I am afraid.<br /><br />But nice try!
 

HotLava

Seaman
Joined
May 2, 2005
Messages
54
Re: liberal utopia

lets not forget that major firmsa are offshoring MAJOR amounts of their workforce as well as IT tech. I'm a consultant and have seen the last 2 firms outsource 10-20% (IBM, DELL, Sybase, The Hartford) of their development to India. In my current assignment, I've watched 10 long term (5+ year) empoyees terminated and offshored.<br /><br />We NEED to put some kind of cost-of-living tax on all offshored jobs that CAN be filled in the US. Meaning, if the ONLY reason to offshore is "cost gains" then the cost-of-living tax is imposed. If the job is offshored because there is no ability to fill it in the US, the tax is levied.<br /><br />sorry, sore spot.
 

SoulWinner

Commander
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Messages
2,423
Re: liberal utopia

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> well, let's see.<br /><br />We have Iran and North Korea aqwuiring nuclear weapons and we don't seem to have a clue what to do about it,<br /><br /><br />and the economy is sputtering and stalling,<br /><br />
Gee PW, didn't your hero Bill Clinton GIVE the nuclear reactors to North Korea.....the ones they are now using to make weapons grade enriched plutonium? Hmmmmmm?<br /><br />And the economy is growing faster now than at any time during the Clinton administration. You libs make it so easy, you know nothing about the facts, but you keep marching lock step with lib talking points.<br /><br />Nice try :D :D :D :D
 

OLDSPUD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
348
Re: liberal utopia

In response to the last two comments:<br />I do acknowledge that there are some major problems in the world.<br />Iraq So far I'm on board with GW, but I will agree with anyone that this woludn't be easy or fast. This place was a boiling pot before, and now it is still a boiling pot. Ya , the US has spent billions, and we have lost lives, but I also think that we don't really get the whole story on the progress made. I still believe that things are heading in the right direction.<br />I will also grant you that Oil is and was a huge concern with Iraq. Oil (right or wrong) is our fuel for freedom and our way of life. Oil touches almost every part of our lifestyle, Medical, food production, defense, the economy ect. What I am looking for is what Bill would have done or not done instead of simply critizing what has happened so far.<br /><br />Iran and Korea,<br />Very scary situation, again I don't think we as the public know the whole story. I think there is movemnet in Iran (pro West) with the younger generation, and frankly that is probably our only hope short of just waiting to be nuked or taking pro action against Iran. These people hate us, and have hated us for many years, even before GW. There were terror problems in the 80's. What would you guys do? I think there is a lot of covert action going on right now, and hopefully better days are ahead.<br />Korea, that guy simply is a punk, and he wants to be a player. I think he is making noise just to make noise. I also believe there is a lot of covert investagation going on, and we are making plans based on real or non real threats there.<br /><br />I have already talked about Oil, Until some democrat comes up with some other energy source, were stuck with our oil demand. One good thing is, there seems to be plenty of it around. I think a lot of the problems with oil is in refining it, and making the different grades demanded by each part of the country. There haven't been any new production plants built in years.<br /><br />Off shore employment. First your tax scheme. Who pays taxes? People pay taxes, Corporations are tax collectors. Raise taxes, people pay higher prices for the products made. <br />I have the ability in my company to buy off shore title searches. Right now i am paying my each of my title officers and searchers aroung forty to sixty thousand a year to work for me. I can buy off shore searches that are based on costs of $5.00 and hour. Hummm, what should I do. I haven't started buying these searches yet, but I get called once a week from this supplier. These people in India are college grads, and extremely bright. Their product seems to be OK. Off shore production is not going to go away, and people better get ready to deal with it. One good thing is, these guys are buying american products to build their facilities and plats, plus the lower product prices are benefitting the American public. <br /><br />I think greed is one huge problem with a pure market economy. I also think that some of these CEO's are very greedy, are causing some big problems with their corporations, but as a general rule, I think a lot of the average CEO's are like me. I like my employees, part of my enjoyment from work is the relationships made with them.<br /><br />I am not in favor of the government telling me how much I can pay myself. They already tax the hell out of me.<br /><br />This is going where I thought it would go, just critizing the current president, with no suggestions of a better way to do things.<br /><br />Spud
 

eeboater

Commander
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
2,644
Re: liberal utopia

With the United States being controlled 100% by the libs... I say, Austrailia is looking awfully damn nice...<br /><br /><br />You know what the nicest part about that statement is? If I act like a lefty (read: Serandon, Robbins, Baldwin) I can say "I'm moving out of the country" and never do it.<br /><br />For the past several years, our power provider (WE Energies) has been trying to build a new coal-fired power plant in the Soutern part of Milwaukee. The greenies have been going Nooo noo nooo please mr evil power company don't build a Coal fired plant, build a natural gas plant.<br /><br />Then the greenies turn around and say NOoo noo mr Evil petroleum company don't drill for gas in our precious land.<br /><br />So mr Evil petroleum company says, "OK, I'll ship it in from other countries at the consumers expense. But, I need to increase the number of ports that will offload Liquid Natural gas to accomodate the increase in need for natural gas since we cannot drill for it in our country and you wont let me build a coal fired plant."<br /><br />And mr greenie says "noo noo noo mr evil petroleum company, terrorists will blow up our ports and all the fish will die!!"<br /><br />Well, Mr Evil Power plant guy and Mr. Evil petroleum man say to Mr. loving greenie, "What do you want us to do?" <br /><br />Mr. Greenie say "Wind power is the key!!" So, mr evil power plant man builds ginormous windmills to accomodate mr greenie's request to have wind power. <br /><br />All of a sudden Mr. Greenies pet sparrows and geese are getting clipped as they stupidly fly into fast moving wind turbines. Mr. Greenies says "ohh nooo my pet sparrowgeese are dieing from Mr. Evil Power plant's evil wind machines!! We must picket, blow up, and stop the evil wind machines!!!<br /><br />Moral of the story: Greenies as well as lefties hate Energy. Period.<br /><br />Fuggit. Lets all become nudists and move into Mud huts. I think that will solve our problems. Or would it? hmm.. nope, We're still alive moving around the mud to make huts hurting Mr. Greenies sparrowgeese houses.<br /><br /> TELL ME THIS STORY ISN'T TRUE! :D :D <br /><br />Sean
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,719
Re: liberal utopia

Interesting perspective, Spud.<br /><br />I tend to agree with much of what you said.<br /><br />I have not been in line with GW on Iraq from the start, as while Saddam was a bad guy, no doubt, he was clearly not a direct threat to us, and was not a part of the war on terror.<br /><br />Am I glad he is gone? Of course. Would it not be great if democracy flourishes there? Of course, but that is surely not a foregone conclusion. And appointing Chalabi, currently a fugitive and accused spy, as oil minister is a shaky start down the road to freedom and democracy.<br /><br />And I certainly did not mean to imply that GW is the cause of all problems, but the implication of both the original post and the thread title suggests that "liberals" are at worst responsible for it, or at best offer no viable solutions to problems.<br /><br />No political idealogy will solve all the world's problems, no doubt. We need a cooperative effort, which is increasingly made more difficult by the incessant demonizing of political philosophies.<br /><br />As in your example of oil. There is never going to a simple, Democratic plan that is going to be the answer to our foreign dependency of oil. Nor are we ever going to somehow drill our way out of this problem. It is going to take a huge investment to develop alternatives--And somehow they need to be funded at some point in time. So far, we are only paying lip service to the problem.<br />We seem to be relying on private funding for this which is a risky strategy, IMO.<br /><br />As far as your comment on greed, it is true, and always will be true. That's why we need tons of laws to make sure that the greed that is part of human nature stays within acceptable societal limits. And people like Eliot Spitzer to make sure those laws are followed.<br /><br />As far as your point on outsourcing, if I were a stockholder in your company, I would wonder why you are squandering stockholder value by not hiring competent less expensive people to perform that service. Those people that may be displaced by that need to adapt their skills to a more value producing service of some sort. It is the way of the world, I am afraid--and will ultimately produce a net gain when the dust settles.<br /><br />In short, there will never be a perfect idealogical position that is the answer to all problems, and those that suggest there is are to be greeted with extreme caution. On either side of the political spectrum.
 

OLDSPUD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
348
Re: liberal utopia

Ok, now we are getting somewhere, why can't the damn politicans get to a point of civi discussion like this is starting to have. Ya, I already know some of the answers why.<br />I don't have time now to spar with you, I spent enough of my time today at work on this. Although I've have enjoyed what time I have into it.<br />I'll talk to you later.<br /><br />Spud<br /><br />PS<br /><br />People who work for me are highly skilled in this profession, and talant doesn't come cheap.
 

Skinnywater

Commander
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,065
Re: liberal utopia

The current two party system is responsible for most if closely not all of the problems. Instead of trusting in supreme ideas and sound logic both the right and left start engaging in abstract.<br />Surely both the left and right are to blame and both are in total and complete denial. You have "ditto heads" on the left who worship Howard Dean and Michael Moore who spit at the "ditto heads" on the so called right marching locked lipped with with Rush and his parrot brigade.<br /><br />There is a lot of debate about politics here. The full range of baloney. So called Conservatives that endear the term "neocon" with pride. Where meddleing in others affairs is as honerable as the hypocracy is ignored.<br />So called Liberals who cry for honest debate and end up being party line parrots. It's expected from the left to subvert a moral republic to a carefree irresponsible utopian commune.<br /> So called Libertarians, who embrace their beloved Social Security ponzi scheme. <br /><br />Trouble is the blame game gets pushed to big business and welfare deadbeats while the people prefer ignorance, complacentcy and pre-packaged salad.<br />It's real easy to feel comfortable owning a couple of businesses in a red state and feel like the sun doesn't set on your man in Washington. It's equally easy when your dot com bubble pays huge dividends while your cool dude hero in Washington lies under oath and erodes moral responsibility. <br />Surely it must be easy, because you still think the Republicans or the Democrats have the answer. Both sides wish and wait for dialog, as if you think anything close to a dialog for solution would be something other then smoke, mirrors, a scheme or shell game.<br /><br />Again, both sides are so adept at blaming the other side instead of the reality that both are equally to blame. Forget about the denial of blue and red politics. In as much that black and white is truth and gray is a manipulation of truth, the Democrats and Repulicans are colored the same shade of gray. <br /><br />Lets talk oil. <br />Both partys in power support our dependence on buying it from repressive regimes. Some of those we are dependent on qualify as our enemy. This is a basic breach in our national security. National Security is firmly their basic responsibility. All during the '70's and '80's we were told of capped wells here that weren't economically feasible to market. So if $50 plus a barrel doesn't make it happen, embrace your denial.<br />Solution; Maybe arming ourselves with knowledge and quit being "ditto heads" would be a good start. We aren't even called citizens anymore, we're consumers.<br /> <br />"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none." - Thomas Jefferson, 1801 inaugural address.<br />"The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson<br /><br /><br />Lets talk war.<br />Both partys made it policy to be involved in the affairs of other soverign nations. Usually playing one against the other while stabbing each in the back. We'd support and prop up vicious suppresive dictatorships solely for our own needs. We'd boast about helping the poor in need while making the murderers of those same poor, very rich.<br />If this doesn't breed terrorism, embrace your denial some more.<br />Solution; Our foriegn policy should be to mind our own business. Especially when it comes to embracing freedom. As evidenced in Iraq, freedom is only deserved when the oppressed are truely willing to fight for it oin their own. Freedom is cheap to the oppressed when someone else has to win it for them.<br />Our founders had plenty to say about war and minding our own business.<br /> <br />"People and nations are forged in the fires of adversity." "Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will be America's heart, her benedictions and prayers, but she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator of her own." John Adams<br /><br />"America... well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extraction, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force... She might become dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit." - John Quincy Adams; Address, 4 July 1821<br /><br />"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all... The Nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest ... Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances, with any portion of the foreign world." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 17 Sept. 1796.<br /><br />Lets talk taxes.<br />Both partys represent their corporate freinds very well. In fact they're shameless pro$titutes.<br />Oil and pipeline producers in the Fortune 500, favorite constituents of the Republicans in the 3 years 2001-2003 collectively paid only 13.3% of their record profits in taxes. That's the lowest tax rate for a citizen struggleing below average wages. The President recently signed additional tax cuts and incentives for them.<br />News, entertainment and film industry (Disney, Time/Warner), favorites of the Democrats have special rules and write-offs that total $590 million over the next 10 years without sunset. Repulican "ditto heads" sure play up paltry tax cuts given by GW. But in reality it's more like tossing a crumb to the rabble. And the Democrats aren't shy about letting us know they want it back and more. Fact is, if the Republicans were serious about what they preach that tax cuts are good for the economy, then eliminating payroll taxes would give us the best economy in history.<br />For certain, every April 15th we all embrace our denial.<br /><br />Lets talk economy.<br />Both partys proactively practice authorize and spend now, let future generations carry the debt burden.<br />America has become much more a socialistic economy, and less a free-market one. Right now 68% of the federal budget is consumed by social spending and interest on the debt resulting from it. FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DEBT of $7.4 TRILLION = $25,107 per PERSON, and rising. This means each man, woman and child owes $6,434 in federal debt to foreign interests. Peacetime debt moved from about 10% of the economy's GDP to the current historic peace-time record six times higher - - or, 6 times faster than the economy expanded. This government and it's citizens just carry larger credit card balances, that's all.<br />If this makes you feel more wealthy, again, embrace your denial<br />Solution; Force the government to balance it's budget. <br />Again plenty was said about this subject.<br /><br />"I place economy among the first and most important of republic virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared." -Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816<br /><br />"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson<br /><br />Lets talk Social Security.<br />Both partys are well exercised in corruption, lies and theft. HOW CAN THEY SAY THEY WANT TO SAVE SOCIAL SECURITY WHEN THEY ARE RAIDING IT? As of the end of fiscal year 2004, $1,453 billion ($1.5 Trillion) of in-coming surpluses from workers had been siphoned-off to-date from the Social Security trust fund - a 340% increase of $1.2 trillion since year-end 1991 - every penny spent on non-pension stuff. ($139 billion of that was extracted last year).<br />Social Security is a Ponzi scheme and just another tax. <br />Trusting proven thieves and criminals is certainly denial.<br />Solution; It's important to enforce the Constitution and immediately remove the power that was UnConstitutionally given to it...in all matters.<br /><br />"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce. ... The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives and liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement and prosperity of the State." - James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 25<br /> <br />"With respect to the words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." - James Madison - 'father of the Constitution.<br /><br />Now let talk further about a solution.<br />I think it's to late. I'll prove it by stateing most here after reading this most "ditto heads" would paint me a whacko.<br />Today both sides are looking in wrong place for solutions. Can't see the forest for the trees.<br />I hear everyday as people beat their chests spewing; "This country is a Constitutional Republic!" Wrong, it's not anymore.<br />"We are a free trade economy!" Wrong, we aren't anymore.<br />"We are a government of the people and by the people!" Wrong again, you work for the govenment as tax payers and serfs.<br /><br />At the close of the Constitutional Conventional in 1787, Benjamin Franklin said that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention gave the people “a Republic, if you can keep it.” We should apologize to Mr. Franklin. It is obvious that the Republic is gone, for we are wallowing in a pure democracy against which the Founders had strongly warned. Thank the Republicans and the Democrats you guys are proudly argueing for.<br /><br />Truth is, we're all a bread line away from begging Big Brother take care of us and we're all looking forward to each and every crumb that is tossed our way.<br />And your precious Second Ammendment won't mean squat when you're looking down the rocket tubes of a Cobra gunship.
 
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