Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

QC

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Originally posted by txswinner:<br /> Magster, People who are anti-union usually have no idea what they speak of. I am not a union man anymore, in fact I am an owner of a privately held corp with a nice employee benefit plan. I am proud to say I have the finest non-union group of workers I know of. However, I do maintain a benefit package and wage standard matching union levels. Not to keep out the union but to maintain the product of work at the union level. Unions are labor and labor is America.
So basically, YOU are the only one who can be trusted to do things right? :confused: Do you see the irony here? You own your own business, but want someone else to have power over your business?
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Hey, txwinner, Whats to prevent those fine workers from uniting and then demanding a 5 dollar an hour raise. You make enough money, you can share that wealth, right. :rolleyes: <br /><br />Ken
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

You and I agree on one thing, management is at least party to blame. Plenty of bad decisions to go around.<br /><br />And I am neither management, nor a computer geek, just a peon lab tech.<br /><br />Plenty of people will buy a new car, when a new one costs half as much cause the labor costs went down.<br /><br />Ken
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

That will never happen.....JK
 

grandx

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Another thought about GM's trouble.<br /><br />This month "small cars" with good MPG's had a tremendous increase in sales, primarily due to high gas prices. In addition, Toyota and Honda are making hybrids and selling them like hot cakes. GM's solution to high energy prices was to make a smaller version of the Hummer??? It wasn't the assembly line worker who dreamed this strategic plan up.
 

PW2

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Yep, the same thing happened in the 70's when the Big three continued to make big cars, and Honda and Toyota et al ate their lunch with smaller, fuel efficient, and better built cars.<br /><br />The sad part is no one is to blame, and everyone is.<br /><br />Labor is a commodity, traded like any other commodity. Supply and demand. As the supply of labor goes up, the wage rate must go down.<br /><br />But, it is a vicious spiral, as if consumers can't afford your product, demand will go down, and either supply will either match that, in which case you lose jobs, or prices will go down, and in some cases, companies will be forced out of business.<br /><br />BTW- a company (or a part of a company) is worth what it earns, (or a multiple of that). I'm sure GM would love to sell its car making part, but as it is losing money, it is not worth very much.<br /><br />It is attractive to sell the money making part because it is worth a whole lot more money, and assuming you can use the capital generated to improve productivity and lower costs, it could even make strategic sense.<br /><br />If it simply prolongs the onset of inevitable bankruptcy, you are better off selling the unprofitable part, even if all you can get back is what it weighs.
 

crab bait

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

well,, next time you buy a new american car,, buy the one that's made in mexico..<br /><br />gotta be a whole lot cheaper, huh..??
 

magster65

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Geez,<br />I feel bad for those affected. There's likely going to be some tough times ahead for a lot of families.
 

KaGee

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Ken... FYI... Delphi has probably a larger presence in Ohio and Indiana combined than Mich.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

"The Delphi action means negotiations on the 2007 contract with the UAW are under way," Healy said. "The union has to make concessions because GM can't keep losing money at the rate they are. The small print in the GM financial statements says that in 2004 its labor cost was $78 an hour with benefits."
Either GM is fabricating or this number is insanely high. No company could ever expect to make a profit in a competitive market with this cost per employee.
 

jimonica

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

I'll preface this by saying I spent 15 years in the automobile business and it's been about 9 yrs since I last worked in the field. So these stats might be a little outdated.<br />I remember reading an article in Automotive News about how inefficient General Motors was. General Motors was trying to figure out how to get the number of labor hours per car down from approximatly 30 hours to somewhere close to at that time what was the leader Nissan, with 19 labor hours per car.<br />So growing up in a good union household and being a union backer myself and sick of all the union bashing, I did some quick calculations. If you figure in all the benifits, health care, paid vacations, sick time or any other benifits you can think of, management would tell us there paying about $45 per hour, multilpy that by the number of labor hours per car and you get about $855 per car for Nissan and about $1350 per car for General Motors. <br />The largest expense per car was advertising, at just over $2000 per car.<br />I just think unions have become managements scapegoat and ther real problems are in the product and management themselves. <br />By the way Toyota just commited to building a big plant in Onterio Canada, after getting proposals from all over the United State for the plant. The reason for they chose Canada? Universal Health Care for all Canadians. Toyota figured it will save them about $6000 per year, per employee.<br />And when asked why Toyota didn't expand in Kentucky where they all ready have big plant, they were not happy the skill level of the workers. Sorry Kentucky.
 

jimonica

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

$78 per hour could be accurate. But I remember hearing Ford tried puffing up that hourly rate figure and they used the cost of the employee lunch room and the cost of the employee parking lot to inflate the hourly rate and turn public opinion against the union.
 

BassMan283

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

So taking the worst case scenario of $78 per hour and 30 hours labor per car we're now up to $2340 labor cost per car. Where does the rest of it go?
 

imported_Curmudgeon

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

When asked about the low salary scale for his pilots (near the bottom of the list), the CEO of a small, low cost airline quipped Considering the number of applicants for my jobs, the pay scale must obviously not be low enough.<br /><br />I lost my job because consumers wanted dirt cheap airfares, didn't really care about the frills, and didn't care too much about the quality of the drivers. The next time you fly a regional jet, ask yourself if that pubescent kid in the front seat is the best available ... or the last one willing to take the job regardless of the pay. I suspect the folks on America West in LA could give you a good starting point for reference.<br /><br />The same could soon be asked about the vehicle in which you transport your family!
 

rogerwa

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Theres a lot of fluff going on back and forth here. The distrust of the executives is clear and really shows ignorance. My company manages billions of dollars of other people money like they have done for well over a hundred years. There is no union to ensure the workers are trained well enough to manage this money. And anybody that deals with customer or the financial end must be certified in a number of different ways.<br /><br />The issue I see with Unions is that they do not really understand what the company is there to do. It is not there to provide jobs. It is not there to look after the workers security. It is there to make a profit and increase the value to the shareholders of the company (the owners). That is the mission of the executives.<br /><br />The leaders of the company must juggle many variables to keep that value of the company up. The labor union demands wages and benefits, which in many cases are not comensurate for the value they provide and often the benefits (notably health coverage) is way out of whack with the non-union employers. The union removes the ability of the mgmt to affect these variables appropriately. Labor, in most cases, is the biggest part of the expense pie and they cannot change it to make the company profitable.<br /><br />Its pretty simple.. <br /><br />I work in technology and the outsourcing thing is in full swing. I understand that my job may be lost to India. I also understand that the company is doing what they need to increase the value of the company by lowering costs. Its not personal. I may not like it but thats the breaks. I am also not going to sit around and wait to be shown the door. It is my responsibility to be where the market needs me. If I am overpriced for the value that I add, I am a sitting duck. Just like the union workers are sitting ducks.
 

stan_deezy

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Okay, here's a question:<br /><br />Where is Nissan's most productive/economically viable car plant in the World?<br /><br />East Asia: wrong.<br />Japan: Wrong.<br />China: Wrong.<br />France: Wrong.<br /><br />Britain: Correct.<br /><br />Even with high wages, taxes material costs etc being so high the Nissan plant in Sunderland, Tyne & Wear is at the top of the league. <br /><br />Shocked me too!<br /><br />It is unionised but it is run very effeciently and has some of the best products in term of market share rolling out to Europe (small mini-cars with miniscule fuel consumption, excellent build quality, low warranty claims etc etc).<br /><br />Now anyone that knows me on iboats knows that the last thing I am is anti-American but I've read and heard a lot of things about current American built vehicles and they all have one thing in common (and it's not just GM): poor build quality.<br /><br />Classic example has to be the GT40 Ford. One of our high profile TV presenters who has his own TV car show was hyping the car up for months and had signed on the waiting list for one. He was one of the first to get the GT40 in Europe. <br />He only had it less than two months then Ford gave him full refund. Why? Because it kept breaking down. Electrical glitches everywhere, bits of trim falling off, engine management problems and a whole raft of other build quality issues. It wasn't a good advert.<br /><br />We've just watched the British car builder Rover go bust thanks to outdated designs, poor management, unreliability issues, poor sales and ever-rising costs. I hope you guys learn from our mistakes and don't let your once proud car giants die.
 

Tinkrrrrr

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Modern large corporations may in theory exist to benefit shareholders but often in practice they are not run for that purpose.<br /><br />A very few are run for the personal benefit of the person, family or group which always ran them before they became public companies and sucked in public capital to line the pockets of the original crew: e.g. Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation.<br /><br />Most are really run to maximise the ridiculous salaries and other benefits paid to the senior executives who run them: e.g. Meg Whitman and her merry crew at eBay who have plundered stock options and earned fabulous amounts during their very short time there. These people are the modern capitalists, except unlike the classical capitalists they merely control rather than own the means of production.<br /><br />Most senior executives have fairly short term aims. Usually this is because: (a) They want to maximise their own benefits by fooling shareholders and the stock market into thinking they are actually improving profitability while merely meeting the targets they set for receiving their own extra benefits, or (b) Even if they reject those selfish motives and want to run the company for long term gain, they are pretty much forced by industry ratings published every month or quarter by sundry ratings agencies and journalists, all of whom are happily free from such ratings themselves, to try to maintain or improve their company's position.<br /><br />The easiest way to create the illusion of improved profitability is to cut costs. The easiest costs to cut are the wages of anyone below the level of the fabulous amounts paid to the executives who decide who is going to lose their job.<br /><br />It was shown clearly after the 1987 stock crash that the companies which took a long term view and didn't shed staff in a panic came out best.<br /><br />Unions today are a necessary balance to the slash and burn policies and actions of executives chasing short-term aims which often have no purpose but to benefit the executives at the expense of those they sack.<br /><br />Following one of my self-destructive moments during my fairly brief senior corporate career, I was shunned by other senior managers for opposing their decision to sack low paid workers like cleaners in retaliation for the workers taking what I regarded as reasonable strike action to try to force management to consider fair claims for better pay and conditions. I didn't help matters by pointing out that, like the other senior managers, the corporation paid the equivalent of several weeks' wages for cleaners etc for me to be a member of a club where just one meal each one of us often had once or twice a week cost about half of the cleaner's etc weekly wage. My suggestion that if about 10% of us cut by a mere 10% our self-indulgent entertainment budgets we could not only meet the cleaners' demands but even employ a few more did not go down too well. <br /><br />Maybe my views were influenced by my varied occupations. <br /><br />I'd been a cleaner in the buildings of similar corporations. I had a clear understanding of the joys of plunging bare hands down a toilet bowl in executive and other toilets to push out stuck turds and then scrub the bowl with the worn abrasive pads off the floor scrubbers. Other things get stuck in women's toilets, which had to be dragged out with bare hands. If nothing else, these things teach you to clean your hands throughly before you put them anywhere near your mouth, let alone eat.<br /><br />I don't think unions are necessarily the next thing to sainthood or the path to a workers' paradise. When I was a shunter, long before my brief and suicidal senior corporate career, another shunter got killed because he was working a main line engine as a shunting engine and it couldn't pull up in time to stop rolling him around the front step of the engine and a rake of goods trucks standing foul of his track. We'd been opposing using these engines for ages because they had main line brakes that acted a lot, lot slower then shunting engines and were bound to get us killed sooner or later. Those of us who saw him die, which took a distressingly long time for somebody so badly broken and cut up, were particularly hostile to working with the main line engines any more, and the rest were very strong too. At a major railway union meeting we were all for striking and doing other things until the railways ditched the main line engines as shunting engines. The leader of the railways union talked us out of immediate action and promised great results. We took no action, relying on his assurances that we wouldn't have to work with main line engines any more. A while later he was appointed by the government as a railway commissioner, moving from the workers' to the bosses' side. The railways continued to use the main line engines to shunt. <br /><br />On the other hand, despite having been a member of and sometimes screwed by most of the major unions in Australia over the past 40 years, I still believe that they're the only thing that stands between the untramelled power of rapacious corporations and bad bosses over powerless workers. It's why I voluntarily waste a few days' pay every year on union dues for a pretty useless union, because I think it's worth supporting the principle rather than the result. The same way that people support hopeless political parties because they believe in what they stand for, even if nothing they want is delivered. Every now and again one of them gets elected and does something their supporters want.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

I never had a problem with unions striking about saftey.<br /><br />But, companies should set the pay.<br /><br />If you dont like the pay, go somewhere else.<br /><br />If the execs want to have gold plated toilets, and be hand fed by well paid servants, that is their business.<br /><br />Ken
 

KaGee

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Re: Kenimpzoom's troll of the week-Unions

Even with high wages, taxes material costs etc being so high the Nissan plant in Sunderland, Tyne & Wear is at the top of the league. <br />
I thought Nissan was also on the ropes???
 
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