Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

[markedman]

I see potential problems with my glassing technique. I'm repairing my keel, ( three -length wise cracks in the keel ) - previously repaired from the outside. Not by me! Anyway I started by grinding out the area about 7" up eachside and removing all the broked and frayed bits. ( from the inside)

The result was a pretty chewed up centerline - uneven and a bit of under cutting, (went right through once) So I read fiberglass hates sharp angles and voids etc, So I figured I'll fill the unevenness with epoxy/cabosil mix. I made a spatula out of thin plastic (wiped out the area w/ acetone) wet the strip 2" wide with epoxy and put a nice slightly concave fillet of PB in the keel While it was wet I mixed more epoxy and put in a 14" wide path of 6oz cloth x 5ft long to make up the thickness I took out with the sander (Note I hope epoxy works w/ this stuff.) I followed that with 24oz woven roven 10" wide and another 10" cloth.

Should mention all layers were put in while the epoxy was wet or in semi-hard gel stage. Used a slow hardener and no overheating noticed in fact its only 60F in the garage and the stuff takes a bit longer to set than says on the bottle.

By the By I using SystemThree non/blushing marine grade. Dang EXpensive here. Paid $213 for 1.5gallon. but seems to work nice. I'll change to west product when I run out.

So next I put in 5" wide strip of 24oz woven roven and 5" wide 6oz cloth again. I thought I'd feather the widths to prevent the hull from getting too thick and stiff. I still have to repair and layer the outside of the keel as well.

I looked for ideas on what layers to use and just recently saw that epoxy needs special matting ( bought plain old mat I don't think its epoxy rated thank goodness I didn't put it in)

Guess I need some one to tell me if I used enough, too much? Did I do good or what?

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Sounds fine.

 

[oops!]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

picks please......


sorry bout the oilers.....

edms my home town

cheers
oops

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Alright an Edmontonian!!

I'll pass the Oiler condolences on to the wife and kids, they're the passionate hockey nuts. Me.. I'm one of about 3 guys in Edmonton that couldn't give a hoot for the game. NHL means "Not a Hockey Lover!". but thanks for the thought.

And the pics are in the works. I'm new to the internet, new to forums and the camera so... may take a while. Can you see them if I just tape them up to the monitor??

Another question though... Is the height of the floor critical or can I change it an inch or so for the increased thickness? It was just sitting on 2 stringers and tabbed to the perimeter.

And if there wasn't a stringer in the boat originally can I add one? I was thinking of running one full length down the keel.

I know pics are needed for a better idea. I'll get the wife on that ASAP.

Thanks again

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Well, first off boats don't have floors, they're "decks" or "soles".

But anyway, you can change the height if you like. Just keep in mind that as you raise the deck, you're raising the center of gravity of the boat. Doing this may make the boat more prone to tipping or "listing".

But, a few inches (2-3) won't matter. Some people raise the deck to get more storage, some do it to help their deck self drain better.

Your repair sounds good. I personally would have gone with increasing widths of cloth and roving, IE 5 inches, then 7, then 10, though.

Erik

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

When you're right you're right. Boats do have decks. My terminology will get better as time goes on. Did I mention I'm new to this boat repair and ownership thing.

My terminology seems to suffer setbacks as I find more and more to repair. Sometimes the terms ain't printable!!

You know I searched the forum for ideas on laying up the cloth etc. but I'm new to forums and the internet in general I suspect the info is there but I couldn't wring it out.

I contemplated doing it your way too, don't know why I didn't. I drew two diagrams of layups and tossed a coin.

Anyway it went in smooth, I like working with epoxy (first time) and this stuff is non-blushing, I can recoat up to 72 hrs later without sanding!

Got a new wrinkle now. I drilled into my stringers and the bit came out wet wet wet!!!
Even stranger though is what came out was foam! Same as the crud I scraped out of the bottom of the hull (or is that the floor?)

NO ROTTEN WOOD YAY!!! But now what?? Do I do a victory dance or hang my head an cry.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Heh, it's up to you... I think you'll find yourself doing both at different times if you keep working on boats.

Some stringers are made with foam cores... this isn't a bad thing necessarily, as foam won't really rot. But as you see it does get waterlogged, and you probably don't want to carry all that extra water around with you. I'd recommend removing the foam, and replacing with either new foam or (more easily) wood.

To do it right, you should probably remove all the glass and foam from the sections that are wet, install the new stringers, then glass the whole thing down with fresh material.

Plenty of people here doing that... if you have questions, post some pictures and ask, we'll help.


Erik

PS: To save money on a larger repair, consider ordering some epoxy from US Composites or the MAS products here on iboats. For $213 I think you could get 3-4 gallons of the stuff.

Even if a non blushing epoxy is used, you might want to consider rough and scuff if you wait 72 hours... the epoxy will adhere, sure, but it'll adhere more strongly if you rough the surface and make sure it's clean with acetone.

 

[oops!]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Alright an Edmontonian!!

I'm one of about 3 guys in Edmonton that couldn't give a hoot for the game. NHL means "Not a Hockey Lover!". but thanks for the thought.

And the pics are in the works. I'm new to the internet, new to forums and the camera so... may take a while. Can you see them if I just tape them up to the monitor??

1. that sacreligous in edmonton....get on the band wagon or ill call dave seminko to have a little "chat" with ya

2. if you tape the picks to the monitor you have to tape them face down...so you see the white side. and you have to tape them in the middle of the reply box or we might just see an edge of the photo !

3. the stringers made of foam are just fine as the strunger gets most of its stregnth from the glass...in patricular the top edge of the glass....in your case the foam is just there to gice the glass a form......

however...wet is not good.....yup....dig it out.......sorry to be the bearer of bad news however...water IN boats is not optimal.

keep us posted

cheers
oops

 

[ddrieck]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Hey Markedman, I too am new to boating. If I've learned on thing from all the information and posts here in the restore section its this

" If in doubt, Take it out"

just my 2 cents

 

[Coors]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

We need pics. Is the exterior stringer glass 3/8" thick or so?

This matters, as for as "foam" statement goes.

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

1. that sacreligous in edmonton....get on the band wagon or ill call dave seminko to have a little "chat" with ya

cheers
oops

Nope ain't gonna do it. Too many Hockey head cases round here already. Besides Gods already punishing me. Got a son 9 and daughter 6 both in hockey.

I'm a good dad, take them to their games, ( Like going to the dentist for a root extraction 4TIMES IN A WEEKEND for me)

I sit on my frozen stern take long pulls on my double double and wish I was workin on my boat!!


Pics are coming honest! Once the wife shows me how.

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

We need pics. Is the exterior stringer glass 3/8" thick or so?

Glass seems to be about 1/4"

Suspect I'll cut a strip out of the top of the boxes, not right to the edge though, I want to maintain the integrity of the box. Scoop out the stuff clean it up then....

Dont know ...paint w/ epoxy resin??? refoam??

gotta get thhose pics for ya


thanks for the reply guys

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

I've got two threads now talking about these foam stringers. this one and "Ski Pylon Preparation"

Didn't mean to.

And I don't want to appear to be wasting peoples time with 2 threads


Any remedy ?

Thanks MM

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

OK time for a photo test


best photo I have of the full boat at the moment


fillet of PB down the keel


The full repair- 5 layers 3cloth 2 woven roven

View attachment 11134
the cracks (3) previously repaired before from the outside, and one roller puncture


The glass covered foam stringers (originally thought they were wood beams)

If this works I'll send some more pics ( I think I can... I think I can... I hope..)

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

I am so smart ... S-M-R-T!
-Homer Simpson

Yahoo It worked, Maybe next time I'll get the pics in proper order for the repair sequence.

Today I cut a 3x12 slot in the top of one stringer. I should have just tapped it like a keg. It was full of water.

I dug down to the hull and found two things

- the stringer "box" is only 1/8" thick, more like a fiberglass balloon than anything structural.

-the box has only three sides. It was then filled with foam, shaved flat, then turned upside down and set into a thick layer of PB. Then finally taped to the hull w/ strips of glass.

Its going to be a pain to get that foam out and the cavity clean enough to accept new resin.

Thinking of cutting out the old stringers, lamming up some blue styro SM shaping it with a belt sander then covering them w/ enough glass an roven to make them respectable and glassing them in place.

Better Ideas anyone?

thanks in advance MM

 

[Coors]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

My Fourwinns had basically the same set-up. They pb'd a 1x to the hull, but shot it with foam, to act as a mold to layer the f/g over. All rotten from deck screws and carpet.
I cut the top off the stringers, dug it out, pb'd a composite 1x in, and poured epoxy in, laying in roven, that went across, and up the walls of the f/g stringer.
Now the engine doesn't jump up 3" off the mounts. (that was scary, when I saw that in action.)
I think, if you did something like that, it wouldn't matter if the f/g is 1/8" thick-it worked so far.

 

[markedman]

Re: Keel repaired, did I do it right? still can fix it

Got more work done. some more pics

removed the rest of the deck and splashwell the transom was in horrid shape.

It had a 2x6 bolted on edge to give latteral suport, just a little heave and it came out pulling chunks with it


The stringers are a little more fun, they become paddle shaped at the stern, and they glassed in two squares of plywood in the top face of the stringers to rest the transom on.

Here's a view of the transom. And Here's a question. The transom was bedded in a layer of PB against the stern of the boat. DO I HAVE TO GRIND OFF THAT PB DOWN TO THE UNDER LYING FIBREGLASS?


Agaain pics are in poor order. This is with the splashwell removed.


And here's another view of the stringers.


I started to cut of the top and dig out the foam but they are really flimsy. I'm thinking the best way is to cut them off totally and refurbish them out of the boat. but I worry about the hull integrity and warpage.

The other thought I had was to glass 3/4 ply wood to the sides then cut the tops and foam out once they are reinforced.

Ah... what to do.

Going to think on this a bit... we're in the middle of a sping snow storm anyway. We've had at least 10" of the *%#^%$*& stuff and I can't get the table saw out.