Kansas NASCAR

[Don S]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

One con rod 3 grams light? Why would anybody do that on purpose?

Just found that info on jayski, nothing about it on nascar.com. and I agree, why would anyone want to do that?

I could see doing it to all the rods Having only one that light makes it out of balance at 9-10K rpm and would/should be an obvious mistake to any inspector. A fine maybe, but not as big as was handed down.
Something just doesn't add up.

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

I agree, why would anyone want to do that?

The only thing I can think of is if they had one piston three grams heavy . . . Sumpin' tells me that wasn't it.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Just found that info on jayski, nothing about it on nascar.com. and I agree, why would anyone want to do that?

I could see doing it to all the rods Having only one that light makes it out of balance at 9-10K rpm and would/should be an obvious mistake to any inspector. A fine maybe, but not as big as was handed down.
Something just doesn't add up.

Not being a stickler, but, Nascar.com had it too.....

Joe Gibbs Racing said in a statement that one of the engine?s connecting rods was ruled too light. ?We are working with our partners at TRD on this issue,? the team said. ?In the meantime, we will plan to appeal the penalty.?

Toyota said in a statement that the connecting rod in question was three grams under the legal minimum weight, and none of the other seven were found to be at fault.

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Is there something else that hasn't been released? From a competition/cheating standpoint, the Penske rear-end housings are a more serious violation I would think.

I love Larry McReynolds take on this:

NASCAR on FOX/SPEED analyst Larry McReynolds offers his perspective on the penalties below:

?Whether with the Gen-6 car or back to the Gen-3 car in my crew chief days, we?ve always known the engine and tires are sacred ground. You don?t mess with the engine or the tires. But I absolutely think this was a mistake on the part of Toyota Racing Development (TRD). If they were going to intentionally run light connecting rods, they?d make all eight of them light ? not just one. This was pure human error. But in NASCAR?s defense, they can?t completely determine intent or non-intent. I don?t question the points penalty or the monetary fine, but I take issue with suspending Jason Ratcliff, because while the crew chief ultimately is responsible for the car from the roof to the driveshaft, there is no way in this world Ratcliff knew that rod was too light. He wouldn?t have known if all eight rods were light; heck, he wouldn?t have known if all eight were missing from the engine. In my 18 years as a crew chief, I couldn?t tell you anything about the engine other than whether it was running well or whether it was in the car.

?If TRD rebuilt this engine and upped the weight of that one connecting rod to the proper weight and re-ran the Kansas race, Kenseth probably still would have won. But there is a line in the sand and TRD crossed that line, whether intentional or not.

?Joe Gibbs Racing has said they will appeal the penalty, and they absolutely should appeal. I?d primarily appeal Ratcliff?s suspension. He was an innocent bystander in this. The engine is a different deal than the rest of the car. If I was Joe Gibbs, I?d be pretty ticked off about losing my crew chief under these circumstances. This was an error but an enormously costly one.?

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

I love Larry McReynolds take on this:

He stole it from me

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

He stole it from me

Fixed it. :laugh:

NASCAR on FOX/SPEED analyst QC offers his perspective on the penalties below:

?Whether with the Gen-6 car or back to the Gen-3 car in my crew chief days, we?ve always known the engine and tires are sacred ground. You don?t mess with the engine or the tires. But I absolutely think this was a mistake on the part of Toyota Racing Development (TRD). If they were going to intentionally run light connecting rods, they?d make all eight of them light ? not just one. This was pure human error. But in NASCAR?s defense, they can?t completely determine intent or non-intent. I don?t question the points penalty or the monetary fine, but I take issue with suspending Jason Ratcliff, because while the crew chief ultimately is responsible for the car from the roof to the driveshaft, there is no way in this world Ratcliff knew that rod was too light. He wouldn?t have known if all eight rods were light; heck, he wouldn?t have known if all eight were missing from the engine. In my 18 years as a crew chief, I couldn?t tell you anything about the engine other than whether it was running well or whether it was in the car.

?If TRD rebuilt this engine and upped the weight of that one connecting rod to the proper weight and re-ran the Kansas race, Kenseth probably still would have won. But there is a line in the sand and TRD crossed that line, whether intentional or not.

?Joe Gibbs Racing has said they will appeal the penalty, and they absolutely should appeal. I?d primarily appeal Ratcliff?s suspension. He was an innocent bystander in this. The engine is a different deal than the rest of the car. If I was Joe Gibbs, I?d be pretty ticked off about losing my crew chief under these circumstances. This was an error but an enormously costly one.?

 

[Don S]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Not being a stickler, but, Nascar.com had it too.....

Finally found the right place to click. Man their site is so messed up. They did figure out how to stop feedback, eliminate the forum.

Anyway, I still think there is way more to this whole story than what is being given to the media.

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Man their site is so messed up.

Totally agree :facepalm:

I still think there is way more to this whole story than what is being given to the media.

Hmmm. I actually think it's just laziness. TRD admitted they buy their rods outside, and by their statement you can determine that they don't weigh them. SOOOOOOOOO STOOOPID AND LAZY. They build engines for the highest level racing in the world (yes I know what F1 is) and they don't verify their incoming parts conform? Stooopid!! I'll bet some of our members here weigh reciprocating engine parts. TRD has made so many engine mistakes in the last year that I think they need to fire at the top.

 

[Don S]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Hmmm. I actually think it's just laziness. TRD admitted they buy their rods outside, and by their statement you can determine that they don't weigh them. SOOOOOOOOO STOOOPID AND LAZY. They build engines for the highest level racing in the world (yes I know what F1 is) and they don't verify their incoming parts conform? Stooopid!! I'll bet some of our members here weigh reciprocating engine parts. TRD has made so many engine mistakes in the last year that I think they need to fire at the top.

If TRD was just lazy, and it was their mistake then JGR, MWR, and anyone else using or thinking about using their engines sure have something to think about.

But I still have to believe there is something none of us know about, but NASCAR does, that brought on that big a penalty. $$$$ are one thing and not the problem, but 50 points for the driver, JGR ??????? That is huge. And then loose the crew chief for 6 races.

I can see Ford and Chevy engines becoming very popular if that is how things work at Toyota.

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

I knew those furrin cars had no business in nascar.

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

But I still have to believe there is something none of us know about

You may be right, but all the NASCAR heads are saying you don't mess with weight and engines. They said fines are typical for this. Look up the Carl Long deal. Similar. Destroyed him, and all because of a cylinder bore slightly over and he bought it outside. All agree he didn't do it on purpose. Same type of thing. And he can't afford to pay so he's out.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

If Toyota is that lax in their QC dept., then they won't last long at this level. I do think the penalties are excessive. With the problems the Toyota's have had with engines, NASCAR needs to be talking directly to TRD and letting them know how seriously they take this stuff.

 

[Don S]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

You may be right, but all the NASCAR heads are saying you don't mess with weight and engines. They said fines are typical for this. Look up the Carl Long deal. Similar. Destroyed him, and all because of a cylinder bore slightly over and he bought it outside. All agree he didn't do it on purpose. Same type of thing. And he can't afford to pay so he's out.

Ahhhh yes. Kill the messenger. if that is the case with TRD

Nascar is killing (penalizing) the teams (messengers) instead of TRD (real cause of the problem)

But how can Nascar do anything about TRD directly? They can't. But they can sure kill off the the people that want to use TRD engines.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Don,

NASCAR has final approval of what brands of cars run in the races, if Toyota continues to have problems, they could declare them invalid for NASCAR sanctioned races. When a car manufacture approaches NASCAR they sign contracts and agreements to guarantee, the parts they provide be within the specifications set in the rules. If in fact this is a TRD problem, which based on what I am reading, I strongly suspect it is and I suspect it will be argued strongly in the appeal, there could be some ramifications for Toyota and their sanction with NASCAR.

In the past, all of the big three have been on probation at least once, and sometimes several times over parts problems and not falling within the specifications set in the rules. There were several snafu's over the hemi's and the SOHC engines.

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

Toyota is not going anywhere. One bad rod measurement will not cause anything except embarrassment and a lot of cash exchanging hands. TRD has cost Gibbs big, and Gibbs is their customer, so they will pay somehow. The approved design is not in question, just a bad part within that approved design.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

QC,

I am old enough to remember when those same statements were made about all three of the American Manufactures at one time or another, I also remember times when they were put on probation as well as missed some partial seasons at various times, NASCAR can be a very finicky group at times.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the appeal and this all plays out. I have seen far odder things happen in my 40+ years of watching NASCAR.

I will add, that 3 grams on one rod has been blown way out of proportion!

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

And I didn't mean to sound combative, sorry. I was thinking about saying these days are a little different; NASCAR wants multiple manufacturers. I agree they can be finicky, and fickle.

To me, TRD looks like carp right now. I cannot believe they don't weigh every part that comes in. Flip we do, and we make some precision stuff, but they go in truck engines, not 9000+ RPM stuff. This one is driving me nuts. As I said earlier I bet there are guys here with scales that weigh all of the reciprocating stuff, and TRD doesn't? And their apology blamed the supplier. Weak.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

When I was in the service, I made sure my motor pool guys weighed everything when we had to rebuilt stuff, they thought I was nuts, until the practice actually saved some butts in combat a couple of times. I learned a long time ago, if it goes round and round, you make sure and weigh everything that can throw it out of balance and I don't care if it is a stock weekend garage stock rebuild!

I really wish there were some other manufactures involved, I was disappointed to see Dodge pull out, it was sad to watch the "Great American Race" Without all of the American manufactures being in the race.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

I agree there almost has to be more behind this story than we are reading. Somebody ticked someone off ....

 

[QC]

Re: Kansas NASCAR

I am going to stick with my story: NASCAR is particularly tough when it comes to engine issues. If you are outside of the authorized specs you get hit hard. No matter who, what or why. Zero tolerance.