It's gone too far.

[DJ]

The follwing link is to a Rocky mountain News article that discribes a students reaction to an anti-Bush button worn by a teacher.<br /><br />Opinions can be had by everyone. However, I thought our PUBLIC schools were supposed to be centers of education, not propoganda. Teachers are supposed to be seen as authority figures.<br /><br /> http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/education/article/0,1299,DRMN_957_1774845,00.html

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: It's gone too far.

i guess i'm misunderstanding this also. I thought the 10 Commandments & prayer in schools were abolished. But its ok to wear anti-government signs? doesn't this push one view over another also? so if a teacher wore a swastika or a "Clinton Bites" button to school 6yrs ago, it would be protected under the 1st A?<br /><br />maybe you or skinnyW can enlighten me on the diff.

 

[DJ]

Re: It's gone too far.

ebb,<br /><br />The so called "seperation of church and state" is not in the constitution. I keep looking for it, but it's not there.<br /><br />My intentions on posting that article are that only "certain" opinions are allowed in our public education system. They must meet some kind of litmus test before they can be sanctioned by the administrators. Apparently anti Bush sentiment is OK. I would wager that a button that says "Charlton Heston Is My President" would not be allowed.<br /><br />I always thought that teachers were supposed to teach facts, not thier own opinions. The students are NOT discerning adults.

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: It's gone too far.

yes, i remember you stating that separation point b4. i guess in this case, it is up to someone to make a legal suit on the basis of being offended (personally affected) by the button, in order to make a change. although i think going to court over every little annoyance is degrading, i guess it would be the parent/child's only option in this case. at least, i think that's how the ACLU gets so many things done.<br /><br />yes, i know what you mean about teachers giving a neutral view when educating. i know a teacher who didn't like clinton, but she didn't ever make anti-clinton stmts, or degrade our elected officials either state or federal. she just didn't add the 42nd prez to the display until last yr

 

[dkondelik]

Re: It's gone too far.

more and more schools are beginning to enforce dress codes. this is being done for several reasons, one of which is to diminish confrontations resulting from controversy.<br /><br />Interesting how these rules apply to the "subjects" but not to their tyrants.<br /><br />Smells of more NEA hypocrisy.<br /><br />Of course academics are dropping. Why should we educate the children when it's so much easier to just brain-wash them.<br /><br />TOO FAR? Yes<br />Surprised? not in the least<br />School Vouchers/Choice? not this lifetime

 

[DJ]

Re: It's gone too far.

ebb,<br /><br />I agree that a lawsuit is not the way to settle this.<br /><br />What really bothers me is the "in your face" attitude of some of the people in this country that one would think they should know better.<br /><br />Teachers have the responsibility of teaching, not indoctrinating.

 

[wvit100]

Re: It's gone too far.

Saying that you do not support the president is not the same thing as saying you do not support the United States.<br /><br />The administration has done a pretty good job a brainwashing the public into thinking that by not supporting the "war" that you are anti-american. They have also done a good job of establishing a nonexistant link between Iraq and the bombing of the World Trade Center.<br /><br />I love this country, I support our Armed Forces, but I do not support the "war" against Iraq. So far I have heard no actual proof that Iraq has done anything to threaten either the US or any other country. When the inspectors come up with something then maybe I can reconsider that opinion. <br /><br />How can you relate not supporting the president to an issue of seperation of church and state. Your falling into this same mindwashing thing of if you not for the president you must be anti-american. I'm sure that if she had been displaying the ten commandments in the classroom that would not have been permitted. Everyone in this country is not a Christian, I'm sorry they just are not. Just as all the children in a school are not Christian, there are Jews, Muslims, etc. By displaying a Christian symbol what are you telling all the other religions. I tell you what it looks like, it looks like your telling them that the religion of the state is Christian and that no others will be considered.<br /><br />Religious beliefs have no place in the schools. These need to be taught at home.<br /><br />Political beliefs have always been at the front lines of education. Children take current events classes, clip newpaper articles, etc. It's a little refreshing that everyone isn't pulling the company line. Maybe if there had been a little more questioning of policy there wouldn't have been almost 60,000 americans killed in Vietnam.

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: It's gone too far.

wazzup wvit! long time no see.<br /><br />i think i understand you, but look again to the last paragraph in dj's 2nd post:

I always thought that teachers were supposed to teach facts, not thier own opinions. The students are NOT discerning adults.

and then to your note:

By displaying a Christian symbol what are you telling all the other religions. I tell you what it looks like, it looks like your telling them that the religion of the state is Christian and that no others will be considered.<br />

that seems to be a fit to me... <br />with your other note:

Saying that you do not support the president is not the same thing as saying you do not support the United States.<br />

just a thought<br /><br />(amended later): i don't want to seem as if i'm cutting your comment apart unfairly. i basically think your last paragraph is meaning its not ok to promote a religion but it is ok to promote a political view - in the classroom. <br />i don't think it is ok - in a classroom of young kids. college kids maybe, not little kids. <br /><br />but its a touchy issue, for sure. they desperately desire to know what is right vs wrong, as middle ground often leaves a very insecure feeling, especially for younger people. since no one can agree on right/wrong these days, shouldn't the teacher be neutral on politics as well?

 

[dkondelik]

Re: It's gone too far.

Wvit 100,<br /><br />GOOD POINT!<br />Now,...Re. the "10 Suggestions"<br />To my understanding, all Christian Religions, All Jewish sects as well as much of Islam, recognize the Old Testament including the "10 Suggestions" in their respective bibles.<br />Which religion is the one that holds the rights to "GOD"?<br /><br />As well, which one of the religions is THE Christian religion?<br /><br />We must stop promoting THAT religion!<br />????????<br /><br />We have about a 30 year history that demonstrates all of the good that has come from kicking god out of the schools<br /><br />The French, to this day, don't see the Proof that Hitler re-armed.<br />Nor did Neville Chamberlain.<br />No reason to go to war!<br />(WW2 mean anything to you?)<br /><br />And yes! AS the enlightened, we must promote Socialism as the only acceptable form of government.<br />Who needs a political debate?<br />What could be worse then loosing a political debate to a 6 year old?<br /><br />Vietnam?<br />Vietnam??<br />Maybe if Johnsen and McNamara were sitting in front and behind JFK,.....<br />This had NOTHING to do with public debate and EVERYTHING to do with "Pin-Heads" Controlling the military<br /><br />Sorry, I got a bit off subject.<br />Your relevant point was what?

 

[FLATHEAD]

Re: It's gone too far.

As an employee of a school district I can tell you that at our district if we so much as put a political sticker on one our utilitie trucks it is grounds for immediate dismissle no if ands or buts. Not to mention wearing a button. The fact that the teachers union is very strong explains a lot of what the teachers get away with.<br /><br />-----------------<br />Flathead

 

[wvit100]

Re: It's gone too far.

Hey klondike7,<br /><br />Give me some examples of what bad has come from kicking the religion out of school. They can't be any worse than what was happening before; like segregated schools and then everyone said rock music was the devils work.<br /><br />And there are a lot of other religions besides the Christian religion that don't mention the bible at all, neither old or new testaments. The god that most people in this country believe in is only on of many gods of many religions around the world. We don't need to be putting one religion over another in school, which is supposed to be a place to learn about the world. Home and church is the place to learn about religion. We need to keep the two seperated.<br /><br />I think if you asked the French and Neville Chamberlain now they would say that indeed the Germans were rearming prior to WWII. I don't think you can compare Iraq with Germany though. Iraq has no manufacturing capabilities to speak of, everything they need they have to import. The only thing they have to generate any money is oil. Germany was able to manufacture planes, tanks, guns, etc. Iraq doesn't have any of those capabilities. Without outside help Iraq doesn't have the capacity to wage much of a war for long.<br /><br />You say we must promote what we consider to be a good system of government, that we are more enlightened so they should listen to us. That sounds exactly like 50 years ago when the communists in Russia were exporting thier government around the world. It's probably what the Romans were saying when they were promoting the Romans system of government around the world. You've got to remember that everyone doesn't think like us. People don't tend to like things that are forced upon them by an invading power.<br /><br />My relevant point is that you should never be so sure that your way is the only way that you trample over others to prove your point to them.

 

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

The system wasn't broken when a morning prayer was removed from grade schools.And I don't recall it suggesting one religion over another.Isn't the lobbying of such rules imposing a belief of no prayer?I personally feel that it instilled morals and was a positive influence on the generation that practiced it. We also used to duck and cover a few times a year and haven't had any post traumatic stress syndrome..What does seem to be a problem is special interest groups dicipling the removal or change of such things with no apparent reason or benefit other than to distort what most were not complaining about to begin with.These people need to find something more constructive to do.Like , fix something that needs to be fixed.<br /><br /> In response to the original topic by Djohns,I agree .A teacher has no business imposing her political interpretations on the student body.

 

[SCO]

Re: It's gone too far.

This is an interesting post, reminds me of some indoctrination my class got in first or 2nd grade. Maybe others of you got the same thing. This is sketchy. The teacher took us through a thought experiment where we talked about the country and the flag, and how it would be a good thing to cut up the american flag into pieces so we could all carry a piece. We all had the willies by that point, the point being to show us how communism could sneak up on you. This was in the tail end of the red scare McCarthy days, about '60 or 61.

 

[SCO]

Re: It's gone too far.

Wvit, I'm not going to get deep into this one, too gut wrenching, but I have a serious question for you. Ill repost your statement first:<br /><br />"My relevant point is that you should never be so sure that your way is the only way that you trample over others to prove your point to them." <br /><br />My question to you is this: Do you acknowledge that maybe Bush is right, and going into Iraq is the right thing to do?

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: It's gone too far.

Okay, now for an insiders view. As someone that is on the front lines here and not outside looking in I have a few things to say. Hopefully this all makes sense and answers peoples responses as well as imparts some information. This is long and may not flow well as it was all written at the same time w/o taking a lot of time to collect my thoughts and write it all then revise so bear with me.<br />Most folks need to realize is that part of the educational process is exposing students to things they may not be exposed to at home. This starts with perhaps a trip to see a play or a zoo and ends with acknowledging that there are people that may have a whole different belief system and introducing them to that concept. We need students to know that because someone is different than you in looks, actions and ideas that does not make them wrong just different. I know for a fact of one classroom that has a mix (although not equal in numbers)of students from Asia, South America, Europe, as well as the good old USA. This mix provides a lot of cultural as well as religious and political backgrounds and learning to deal with others plays a big role here. Exposing students to views that differ from what they have already been exposed to is part of the educational process. This is a delicate balancing act and sometimes the line between exposure and trying to force does get crossed. I personally don't see this as the case here.<br />One thing that most people are mistaken about is I can be religious, wear a cross around my neck and even pray at lunchtime if I see fit. When talking to fellow teachers I can express my opinion on a subject and I can even give my opinion to parents or students if asked. What I must do in this circumstance is make sure others know it is only my opinion and not the belief of everyone or even the belief I or the school as a whole want you to follow. Surprisingly enough I can do all of this while teaching in my classroom. What I cannot do on campus is preach to my students or coworkers, force my views on others or berate them about theirs. There is a fine line and I happen to think that a teacher wearing a button stating their political opinion does not cross it in the least. If the teacher was providing them and encouraging students to wear the button then I would be concerned. Personally at work I try to keep all my opinions to myself as you never know who may take offense to their child repeating something I said or did but then that is me and I work with overly impressionable youth. <br />Someone mentioned what if this teacher were wearing a Swastika or had a I hate Clinton button on. There is a big difference between the two as well as a button saying "He is not my president". All three are a political statement but two out of the three are not spawned from hate and carry a whole hell of a lot more than a simple political statement. The Swastika is a symbol not only of a political view but hatred of others usually based on racial lines. While the buttons may evoke an emotional response from a supporter of what the button mocks the Swastika can cause a riot. This is the difference in the three things and why two out of the three are allowed and the third is banned.<br />I hear a lot about the First Amendment and sometimes I hear a lot about other "rights" that are violated both from teachers and students. Being a teacher and a student are not the same thing and it is funny how the First Amendment does and at the same time does not apply to those on a school's campus especially those paid to work there. A school is public property however unlike a sidewalk it is not a public place. The First Amendment as well as many others cover people's actions in public places not public property. To clarify a public place is something like a sidewalk where people can come and go at will public property is something owned by the government but access is restricted. In this as well as other regards a school is a lot like a prison. Before I get blasted on comparing the two if you look at it you are forced to be there whether you really want to be or not and face a certain lack of personal freedoms while there. A couple things that will show this lack of freedom are smoking and cell phones (as pagers). While smoking is not allowed in any public building a school is the only place where you can not have any tobacco product or related paraphernalia on your person or even in your car while on the property. It does not matter if you are student, teacher or parent the law does not allow you to have them even if you are of legal age. Believe it or not the same is true of cell phones and the only exceptions that are made are emergency personnel who are on call or medical necessity (those waiting for a transplant). As far as freedom of the press forget it even if a student is of legal age if the parent does not agree to it the student cannot be interviewed, photographed or even their name mentioned in a news report about the school or a school related activity. Another sore spot is dress code and we do have one for both students and teachers and it is set by the county. Freedom of Speech may cover Playboy but it does not cover you wearing a naked woman on your shirt in a school. I could go on but you get the point. BTW I forgot to mention that teachers are employees and as such are just like employees other places whose actions are governed by company policy not the First Amendment. Also teachers are under contract here for 190 days and at my school that equates to 7:00 to 3:00 M-F for all 190 days (180 with students and 10 workdays based on the schools operational calendar) however the kicker is when you sign the contract you agree to give away a lot of personal freedoms guaranteed others that if you violate this agreement even over the summer vacation you could loose your job. For example if a teacher were to do a Playboy spread it would violate the section that deals with morality and would be grounds for firring. The same for public drunkenness ans well as many other things "normal" people can do w/o a seconds thought.<br />Now if you read all of this hopefully you understood it and it made sense as well as helped you to understand the schools position on this and why the First Amendment as well as many more don't apply to schools. <br />BTW A Field trip, football game or any other school sponsored/related activity is governed by the school's rules and as such both teachers and students are required to follow them although in certain circumstances special rules may apply.

 

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

Peter, With due respect to your position as a teacher ,I still don't understand how you don't see that displaying an anti Bush pin in the classroom doesn't impose a particular belief on the class.Frankly,I see it as a destraction.After all the teacher is looked up to as a figurehead and wearing a pin of such doesn't seem to be personal belief but rather an overt statement. If the teacher wears this at the school where it will be viewed solely by the students then I can only assume that the teacher is intending to use it to serve an example.IMHO a bad example.

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: It's gone too far.

In a response to Flathead's statement the diference is the truck is the property of the School District and as such cannot be used to promote any political or other idea as it then looks like the school rather than an individual preference. That is where the thin line comes in. I would also guess you wear a uniform of some sort that ID's you as a school employee rather than say a shirt and slacks of your own choosing. To highlight the diference further when I am wearing a school spirit shirt (fridays and by God we get to wear jeans too) I can't do something like go into a liquor store like I normally could the reason is by wearing it I am representing the school. Also dress and behaviour codes differ from district to district and school to school so what could be true at one may not be true at all.<br />I want everyone to know I feel it was very bad judgment on the teachers part to wear that button but under the circumstances I can see nothing wrong.

 

[SCO]

Re: It's gone too far.

This is strange, because we are to the point where we are saying influential adults must not speak their minds. I guess what bothers me about this one is that the teachers intent is to influence on a controversial topic. The teacher has to have discretion or suffer the criticism.

 

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

Abortion is also a cotroversial topic.Should she cover her lapel in pins of every belief she has or is there a one pin rule?

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: It's gone too far.

OB is wearing a cross a bad example? How about one of those Jewish caps? Or one of those head coverings that some Muslims wear? I have even a better question what would you think about a 6' tall Bob Marley poster? How about me eating chicken wings in front of a vegetarian student? How about an unmarried teacher that is pregnant? Or how about if a teacher male or female was gay? There are many many different things i could mention but I think the point is made. As a teacher I am an example to my students but I should not be their only example. It is not up to teachers to decide what is right or wrong for their students to believe but it is up to the students parents. The example I see that teacher being is not a bad one just one that is different than what the parents believe. I feel it should be treated the same as if a parent complained about any of the other things mentioned. One more question what if the button said something like "Nuke them all Bush" or "Send them to Hell GW"?