Intermittent Spark

[bben76]

1971 60HP Electric Shift Johnson

Has run and started great until recently. Suddenly cut out while cruising for about 1 second. Didn't have any problems for about 5-7 more hours of use. Then began to be hard to restart on ocassion. Then cut out completely while cruising - had the "pleasure" of being towed in. Ensured I have good fuel flow to carbs, in fact they were rebuilt last year so are in great shape. Have got it to start in the tank, but won't stay running. When I check the plugs sometimes they spark and sometimes they don't. Plugs have less than 15 hrs on them.

Where do I start to trouble shoot this?

 

[F_R]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Start by pulling the flywheel and distributor cap. Set the points at .010". Check for disintegrated anti-reverse cut-out ring and re-lube it with a very small dap of EP grease. Clean up the cap and rotor. Torque the flywheel to 70-85 ft/lbs when reinstalling.

Don't even think of trying to run the original type surface gap spark plugs in that motor. Use L77JC4 or QL77JC4

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Well, I pulled the flywheel. There is no distributer cap, or nothing that looks like one. The point gaps are .08 & .07. So my question is does the gap get narrower over time? And if I regap them both to .10 will that potentially fix my intermittment spark problem?

I have no experience with this, so I took some pix. Does this all look healthy?

 

[cletis234]

Re: Intermittent Spark

The black piece with the spark plug wires comming out of it under the blue looking multi coils is the distributor cap, the bunch of bluish coils in a circle is your stator(alternator). You should have a power pack(capacitance discharge type) a black box on the right of the motor towards the bottom left corner, this is what fires a coil(close to the power pack same side) which in turn sends juice to the distributor to distribute the spark.

There should be 3 wires comming out of the top of the power pack one should be 12 volts with key on one goes to your points and the other goes to the coil. The 12 volt wire depending on the pack if it is aftermarket or not, should go to the terminal strip mounted on the same side just up from the power pack and should have alot of wires going to it, take a test light if you have one or borrow one and turn your key on and check to see if the light lights up if not we have a power problem, but you said it was intermitent sort of all the sudden died so...

Take the black wire from the power pack and follow it to were it plugs into another leading to the top of the flywheel and unhook it and put a spark tester on the coil wire to the distributor cap inbetween closest to the coil side and touch the black wire to a good ground on the engine block and see if your spark tester lights up or jumps spark depending on the type of spark tester(if you do not have one get one they are cheap or borrow one).

Now if it lights EVERY TIME we can move ahead. If not you may have a faulty power pack(not cheap btw welcome to boating ).

Get your gap to .10 not anything less, this motor has dual points and if you can't get both to .10 then set the leading one a little bit bigger for example; if you get the one to .10 and the other one goes to .11 your fine leave it but do not set it lower then .10 other wise we have what is called pre-detonation and that is not your case but will effect it all the way across the board as far as it running.

Also if you have a deep cycle battery hooked up to that motor you can kill the power pack, the electrics of this motor are real picky. I had an old ciggy lighter on my boat that rusted over time shorted and killed my pack mid run in a tournement years ago. Your starter can also be pulling to much juice to get it going if you have a weak battery or have a cranky motor that take a sec to start can kill a weak battery well enough that it can kill a power pack, that pack is designed to have atleast 10.5 or so volts anything less and you can kiss it goodbye for the most part, some get lucky others do not.

I still run the same 1970 Evinrude 60hp today still runs like the day I bought it, although I do not run the power pack anymore but that is another lesson..

You need a book badly and they are cheap and will explain more into detail as to what little I have explained here and I am tired so I will goto bed now, let us know how it goes and what you are getting or if your confused as to what I have said and I will explain it with more detail.


If I get time tomarrow I have some old pics of my motor and will explain more as to what I have said, easier to describe with pics, also look at the facts page they have here it's good..

CHECK ALL OF YOUR CONNECTIONS!!! Make sure your wires are in good shape otherwise your going to be chasing a ghost.

Good Luck and let me know what you find out.

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: Intermittent Spark

On an engine that age, do a compression test first before replacing any parts.

 

[F_R]

Re: Intermittent Spark

The anti-reverse cutout ring clearly visable in the second picture down, behind the ground wire screw, looks might dry. May or may not have anything to do with the present problem, but deal with it before proceeding.

If it runs dry, is wears badly and the metal dust from wear gets all over in the area. Metal dust is electrically conductive and invites arcing in the cap.

Remove the breaker plate, clean everything with some electrical spray, relube the plate swivel mount and reverse cut-out ring. Note: very sparingly is the word on lube. Too much splatters all over everything. Use some EP grease (extreme pressure).

Set point to .010". It is critical.

Clean the inside of the distributor cap. Test coil and plug wires for continuity. The rest has pretty much been covered.

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Wow, I cannot say thank you enough. I am constantly amazed by the good people on iboats. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.

I have checked compression, they were all within 5psi of each other, believe they were in the 130's, can't remember exactly but I did check this last winter before pulling the lower unit to replace all seals.

I do have a manual, but find ya'lls responses more easy to follow....you fill in the gaps. Like having a mechanic over my shoulder!

I will follow all instructions you've given and report back after this weekend.

 

[bben76]

Update: Intermittent Spark

Update: Intermittent Spark

Well, finally had some time to mess around with it...

Bought a spark tester. Made sure my battery was charged, showed 10.5 volts at battery terminals and at engine. Checked for spark on all cylinders, no luck. Took the flywheel off and gapped the points to .010, put the flywheel back on and immediately had strong spark on all cylinders. Ran the engine for a while, stopped started it, was running just like old times - perfect, thought all was fixed. Put the cover on and went to start it one last time before taking it to the lake and it wouldn't start! No spark again, nothing on any plug. Took the points out and throroughly cleaned everything in distributer cap. Still nothing.

Thought I would test the coil as suggested, but I can't, the wire between the coil and the distributer is one piece, no connection.

I've visually inspected all wires, all look fairly good, can't find anything that would be suspect. I have power to the power pack (10.5v). I think the power pack is after market.

So, without the ability to disconnect the coil from the distributer how do I check it? And is that the next logical step?

 

[cletis234]

Re: Intermittent Spark

You need to have 12 volts to the power pack, yourbattery should have 12 volts also if not charge your battery or the battery is no good, 10.5 is not good that is border line on makeing it a conversation peice.

I had this same problem on my 1970 Evinrude 60hp, motor would run sometimes and run good then no spark at all. I did not want to spend the $240 for a new one so I took it off and did a car coil conversion and could not be happier it starts every time. I have been running this type of setup for 2 months now with no complaints and contrary to what alot of people belive my points are fine due to adding a dual point condensor to my points.

You need 12 volts on the wire going to the amplifier and in 1971 they had the clipper circut, it's a little metal box mounted to the same side as your amplifier is make sure that is good or remove it all together.

if you have an aftermarket box it will most likely be a Repaired(brand) unit by motorola and the coil should be also. If it is aftermarket the clipper circut prolly has been removed allready due to it not being needed by the aftermarket system, most aftermarket systems tell you to remove it in the instructions.

Keep us informed will get ya running strong again.

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

I got a new digital meter b/c I suspected my meter was not accurate. I was right. My digital meter shows I have 12.5 volts. So, guess that rules that out.

Is there a way to check the coil if it can't be disconnected? And is there a way to test a power pack?

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark - UPDATED PHOTOS

Re: Intermittent Spark - UPDATED PHOTOS

The saga continues... I've confirmed that I have 12.19v at the power pack, the lowest i've seen it drop during cranking is 9.8v, average drop is to mid 10v range.

I took the points out and cleaned them. found oil residue under them. here are some pix, does this look normal?

before cleaning:

After cleaning, do they look ok? Seem to have some wear but not a lot, but I'm not experienced...

I thoroughly cleaned the inside of the distributer and reassembled.

Here's some shots of all the wires, power pack, solenoid, etc...

Tonight I checked spark again and it was back. It is very random, it's there and then it's gone. How do I rule out wires to ignition switch, I've seen some forum posts on that but haven't understood exactly what wires to disconnect.

What can I do to further trouble shoot this?

 

[cletis234]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Ok where to start, the points could be oily due to a leaky top seal, or somebody put to much oil on the oil wick at sometime but there is some fresh stuff on there so I am leaning more on the seal.

9.8 volts while cranking is not good you could have a worn starter and it is pulling to much juice on cranking, and there is a way to fix it with adding a diode on the starter solenoid and running straight key on to that pack so it does not drop but I can not rember the amperage or size of the diode to use(maybe some one will see this and post it I saw it but can not find it now).

I had the same problem with my 1970 60hp rude and I just did a car coil conversion and I am not saying do this as I am still in the testing phase and had it on the water every weekend for 2 months straight now and love it, it fires anytime and I do not have to be worried for the time being. Some people are 50/50 on this conversion due to the points wearing alot faster but I have checked every other run and have no ill effects so far as I can see. I also have the luxury of having a no longer available brand new set of points, so I dunno as of yet I will know after the end of the season.

The amplifier you have is an aftermarket unit made by Wabash for OMC in Canada. I do not see the clipper circuit and that is due to this amplifier being after market they have you remove it due it cause more problems than doing any good. Your coil is also aftermarket it prolly came with the amplifier. The way you take it off to check it is take the screws out of it and disconnect it from the terminal strip and follow the high tension lead to the distributor and unscrew it, and be very carful those leads are old and we only wanna buy some parts not more, you might want to use some spray lube to get it to come loose I did on mine.

I just thought of this also do not have any other stuff on in the boat like lights or bilge or anything if at all posssible.

I am betting you are have a bad power pack and a weak starter sucking to much juice or could be the starter solenoid, I did notice you had a new battery wire on the solenoid that is good.

It all depends on where you wanna go from here. I will post a pick of my setup here in a min.

Im not a mechanic I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express Last Night

 

[cletis234]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Here is what I got a Msd epoxy filled high vibration coil, a ballast resistor made by msd for this type of coil so I can run off of points correctly and a condensor to take the shock outta my points. Here are some pics...









That is what I run and it does the job quite well and like I said I will know more at the end of the season or if it breaks before then .

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Thanks for the info and pix! I will see what I can discover tomorrow.

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

After more thought I sorta don't think it's the starter or solenoid b/c it has started, in fact in started tonight. So if the starter was pulling too much power it would be a consistent no start, right?

The spark comes and goes. Tonight it had spark for a little while, but it sounded like and performed as if only 2 cylinders were firing.

Cletis123, are you sure the wires unscrew from the distributer? I attemtped to unscrew one wire but it didn't feel right, it didn't look or feel like it would unscrew.

Does this look like one that unscrews?

 

[cletis234]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Yes they unscrew turn them counter clockwise sometimes they are hard to get out without snapping them off due to age.

Yes the starter can drag down the amplifier voltage while cranking if it drops to low while cranking it will hurt it and yes I know sometimes it starts up and sometimes it does not, I have 2 amplifier's in my toolbox right now that do the same thing they start sometimes and sometimes not that is why I did the conversion on mine I got sick of it doing it.

It really sucks when your 10 miles from the nearest boat ramp with a bad amplifier.

Alot of people have no problems with these systems but they are very touchy if not maintained battery wise or wiring wise. I seen one running with the original amplifier the other day and was astonished it ran by the way the motor looked.

I believe you are going in circles until you can try another amplifier or some other type of ignition system like mine, like I said I had the same problem and just got back from the lake been fishing all day and yesterday and every weekend after I changed mine to car style ignition and could not be happier. I went through the original amplifier which allready had a problem and a brand new amplifier due to a ciggy lighter shorting out so I changed.

You prolly have a bad amplifier.

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Did you post the process you went through to convert to a car ignition?

...might consider doing if it is economical.

 

[cletis234]

Re: Intermittent Spark

No I havn't for one reason I do not fully know if I compleatly trust it yet so I have not posted it yet. There are other posts about it and that where I got my idea to do it to mine and was as fed up as you are prolly. I will only know what it has done to my points, my distributor or any part of my motor until the end of the season or it blows up.

I do not saying yes it will be fine until I know for myself. Some people are against doing this as it has ill effects on the motor and some people say there is nothing wrong with it if done correctly and so far I have had nothing good to say about it. I have had my boat in the water about 12 times since I did it and it seems to run like it should although I have some hesitation on take off but I am in the middle of figureing that one out and my top end is slow like 25mph but I think the prop is wrong so I will know that one also.

I am going to be tearing the top down tomarrow after work and look at my points and see what's up there if everything is ok and check my gap on both of em.

I forgot to ask you what type of spark plugs you got in there and are they new or old?

If you really wanna try the car coil conversion thing I will prolly post something after I check the points tomarrow it only cost me about 68 bucks to do the conversion so it's fairly cheap.

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

Sounds very interesting! I hope you have nothing but good luck. It would be great to see the process you went through, I'd love to try it myself, if you continue to have success with it. At this point, with a motor this old what do I have to loose?!

I have newer NGK spark plugs. I'm not sure of the type without looking but I made sure that the shop that sold them to me (who I trust) double check that they were the correct type for the engine.

Look forward to your car coil conversion post!

Thanks for all your help. Going to try to unscrew the lead for the coil tomorrow to check and see if I'm getting volts to distributer.

 

[bben76]

Re: Intermittent Spark

I followed the instructions in my manual to check the amplifier.
While turning the engine over I put the negative from my multimeter to a good engine ground and the positive to terminal 9. The book said there should be at least 250v when turning over, I only measured about 24v.

Tonight I had it running for a while, and then it died, had no spark, then a few mins later it came back. Had spark for a while and then it went out again. This is how random it is. When it does run it's still not at peak performance like it used to be. When I have spark it is sparking on all cylinders. The less than 250v amplifier check leads me to believe that the prob might be the amplifier.

Does this sound like a normal amplifier problem?