I smell a rat.. maybe it's gas..

[pantaloonz]

Hi

I was emptying some water off the boat cover the past few days and noticed there was that oily look to the water flowing away from the boat. Though it didn't smell particularly oily.. As soon as I get to the back of the boat I do smell gas, and I think that gas is slowing dripping from the bilge.

I've been hitting some larger waves and being a little bit rougher on the boat (gotta give the tubers a good ride) but I wouldn't expect that to damage the fuel tank!

lastly the spot where the fluid is driping on is dissolving the asphalt which is only a few years (maybe 2) yrs old..

When I smell the fluid.. it smells oily. But to my knowledge oil won't dissolve tar just by dripping on it?

Directly under the engine there is some fluid with a slightly heavier viscosity than water, but it's cloudy, not oily.

Based on the smell, and the very quick dissolving action (3 days) I want to say it's gas.. ?

Thoughts?

-Pantz

 

[gm280]

If you smell gas and can see it dissolving the asphalt, then I say it is gas. And before I even tried to ever crank it again, I would certainly find out where it is coming from. Don't try to even crank the engine until you verify and fix the problem, after cleaning out the residual of gas remaining. Otherwise we could be reading about you in the news... :facepalm:

 

[pantaloonz]

GM280

Hear you loud and clear. A little bit of gas means a lot of fumes, plus an aging tank and engine..could mean some serious issues. I will need to inspect in and around the tank and see about where it's coming from. If the tank is damaged that's going to be a very abrupt end to my season and it's going to make me a sad boater.

-Pantz

 

[pantaloonz]

On this topic, (and because I don't have my seloc manual handy) -- does anyone know the specs of the tank for this boat:

1992 Four Winns Horizon 190 OMC 5.0L Ford Model 502BPRAMH

I'm reviewing some of the pictures I've taken recently.. and I think I've talked myself into replacing this tank sooner rather than later.. check these out.:



No wonder my gas gauge doesn't work.. that sending unit is abused!

The brackets attaching to the tank appear to be digging through the surface of the tank

the front of the tank nearest to the engine (first pic) show overall just how aged that thing is.

-Pantz

 

[gm280]

Glad you chose to change the tank. Oh yea there is much to see with those pictures. Snap pictures along the way and post here for us to see what you're working on. We love pictures and offer good ideas and suggestions as well... So glad to see you take the best route to solve the gas smell... :thumb:

 

[pantaloonz]

Hi GM,

Well, I've got 2 little boys who love this boat. I could never live myself if I didn't spend the few hundreds bucks to get it right. Looks like a Moeller is going to be the best bet. Looking at about around the 20 gal mark is probably a good bet. But again I need to know what size tank I'm actually dealing with before I settle on the replacement.

The most interesting part will be dealing with the filling tube. Since the existing unit as shown in the picture is low profile 90 degree fill, and pretty much all the moellers are vertical fill. I'll need to be very smart about what tank I choose.

Regardless of the tank I choose I'm going to have to extend the wiring to the sending unit as the wiring to the sending unit is maxed out right now, there is no play in the existing wiring and the new tanks have moved the sending units.

Tonight I will pull up the boards, and measure. Right now the local marine I do business with has a the 13 gal moeller, but at 10" inches high that might be tight, unless the 10" includes the top of the fittting, in that case I could make that work. 13 Gallons is a little small, but thus far our outings have consumed no more than 8 gallons. (then again I don't want to trailer up if I keep the boat on the water for 2 days!) ..

Yup I'll post pics. is this the right forum or should this move to repair and restoration now?

-Pantz

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,

Can you let me/us know what part(s) you choose for the anti-siphon valve and drop tube?
And what tank you choose.

I think I'll pull my floor this winter and see what my tank looks like since we have the same boat/yr/etc....

Thanks for the pics, I'll be saving the information for my future.

Regards,

Offrddrver

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,

I just e-mailed Four Winns Technical parts support group to see if they can find a tank. I asked them for any specs, drawings, build of materials that may be available for your boat.
I'll let you know if they reply with anything good.

Offrddrver

 

[pantaloonz]

OffD,

The current anti-siphon valve is clean, in fact the tube to the filter/separator is in decent shape (hopefully some reuse there)

I would expect the tank to come with the tube and it has a sender..

I will post all replacement part numbers as I go, I will also calculate the tank capacity once I get accurate measurments, so more to come.

I wrote down the 13 gal moeller tank # part number: 032513 -- Just under 200.00

I'm looking forward to cleaning that tank area out !

-Pantz

 

[b.lee]

I just had a new fuel tank custom built for my 86 Horizon 190... to the tune of $583 (ouch)
$515 for the tank, $35 for a new fuel lever sender plus tax ($33)

Kehrig makes really nice tanks, that's for sure.
The best part is I dropped off the old tank Monday, and picked up the new tank on Friday.. didn't even loose a weekend of boating!

 

[pantaloonz]

B.Lee

That is very nice work!!!, and thank you for the info.

Considering $583.00 would be more than 1/3 what I paid for the boat.. I'm REALLY hoping to avoid that kind of an investment.

I like how the tank is positioned on this boat as well.. very slick.

-Pantz

 

[pantaloonz]

ok Gang, part 1 done: Demo

I got after tonight only had a finite amount of time before storm, so the picture above showed the original, First things first the support braces and side braces needed to come out



That was by far the easiest part, the heads were hard to find on the sides, but that's basic stuff. So I removed the brackets which were in hard shaped and drilled into the side rails and into the fiberglass behind that. I unfortunately had to CUT the tank fill value, the hose was corroded on and I didnt want to risk tearing the hose up.



At this point .. I siphoned 22 *bleeping* gallons out of this thing, and it still had a gallon left over, but I was out of gas tanks. ..you ever hand pump 22 gallons of gas that's not fun. I wanted to risk NO sparks so nothing electrical was allowed on the boat. I even took the battery completely out before starting. Now it was finally time to take it out... I didnt even try to take off the sending unit cable it was so corroded I just snapped it off. (electrical will need to be extended anyway) Here's the beast outside the boat. You can't see it but it rest on a beam on the underside.


It's a tapered bottom tank with a 2" channel through the bottom to ride on a beam in the compartment, definately custom and something I'll need to accomodate with some wood work depending on the tank I go with. The compartment was full of nasty; corroded rotten wood, rubber runners (like on the inside of a car door's window) these rubber runners were providing the snug fit for the tank. But they are SOO nasty I chucked em. My new tank will be simpler.


That's pretty gross huh? -- What you don't see is that I ran the garden hose in, grabbed the dish soap and a SOS blue pad and gave the compartment a bath. It was a quick one because it started to POUR when I was nearly done with the first pass... but it did get one swipe of cleaning.

Tomorrow's plan is one of alternate actions:

1. Primary action, the compartment drain is higher than where water collects, I'm gonna lay a few layers of MAT and fix that ASAP. No standing water in the fuel compartment PLEASE!!

If I can find a suitable permanent tank I will buy that and some boards to make the correct frame (depending on the tank) to fit in the space. Permanent is of course the best option.

If nothing presents itself,.. I may just run with a 10Gal portable above deck for now. Yes it's ugly and woudl be in the way.. but it's also no fun to look at boat in your driveway.

I may end up with a low cost "permament tank" of lower capacity say 15 gals, and fit that in until the fall. I plan to get a fishing boat at some point so that tank could always hop over to the fishing boat..

Until tomorrow my friends..

your input is welcome

Hey OffD, I didnt forget about you.. but I can't help you today. the antisiphon valve has no markings for me to discern who the heck made it. and here's what I got for the model of the tank! nice huh? can't read a damn thing on that besides Crosstalk Poly.. thanks for nuttin!

The closest match to this tank is the Moeller linked below (though the moeller has no channel in it)

-Pantz

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,

Can you see any numbers on that tag? The Four Winns guy got back to me, but said he needs the serial number.
Sorry to ask as I see the tag is doomed by your picture, but anything may help.

I'll ask the Four Winns guy if a boat VIN number could lead him in the correct direction.

Offrddrver

 

[Offrddrver]

No Title

Pantz,

I just had to help......
I opened my boat floor and got this for you.
And I'll send the information to Four Winns for further support.

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,

Just in case my picture is hard to read...
Capacity 33 gallons or 125 liters.
My serial number: 623488
Model #: F03319 (this one is fading, so I'm glad I got pics now)
Wall thickness: 0.200
Material is Crosslink Poly
3 psi test pressure max

Offrddrver

 

[pantaloonz]

Hello all, (I have a question posted below)

OffD, thanks for the label information, and it's probably good that you did get that info. By the look of your label your fuel tank compartment is probably in better shape than mine. Mine was a nightmare, it looked like something you find in the workshop of some horror movie like the hills have eyes or something..

I had very poor visibility last night when I was doing the initial scrub down but here's what I got in the light of the day.



Here you can clearly see the ridge that the original tank was channeled for, a very clever design with the rubber runners in place to make a nice snug fit, then the bracketing system for added stability utilizing the "Flattend V" of the hull for the utmost capacity. 30~ gallons.

In retrospect I should have tried harder to keep the fuel fill inlet on the tank, but the reality is that tank was shot, when it was more than 3/4 full fuel was seeping from both the filling tube, and the fuel sender, I think .. havent verified fully yet but also there are tiny holes in the poly on the front too, so I think it's pretty shot.

I'm calling around marina's I'm most likely going to put in a moeller replacement below deck

1st choice is Moeller Tank MOE32525 - 25 Gallons, low profile 47X18X7.5" this will give me a bit of wiggle room width wise and shallow enough so I can retrofit the filling hose.

2nd choice is Moeller Tank MOE32518 - 18 Gallons, low profile 36.5X18.25X7.25" -- this is actually a VERY close 2nd, as it shortens the length and will allow my ski equipment compartment to be extended, and offers me some interesting options to possibly add a live well on on side of the boat when I reconfigure the decking in the fall.

Lastly I could get along with Moeller Tank MOE32512 - 12 gallons 24.5X18.25X7.25" here again is a reasonable option, we typically expend 5-6 gallons of fuel per outing so this could make 2 days with a reserve tank for an emergency get to shore

As a last ditch an above deck, or even smaller inboard tank while I order the larger unit.

Question: is it legal to reroute the filling hose? I may want to remove the filling hose it's in bad shape, depending the tank I choose I may need a new path.

-Pantz

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,

Can you please help us fellow 1992 Four Winns 190 Horizon guys by showing us where the WEAR POINTS are on your old gas tank. That may give us a heads up for preventative maintenance.
I'm interested in where the tank might have been rubbing on the boat frame/rails/runners/bottom....etc..(you noted pinholes)
No rush, just if you get a camera moment before you toss the old tank.

Do you think your seals or gas lines are being damaged by the ethanol/methanol that is in modern gas? (In other words, is your old 1992 rubber parts showing signs of deterioration or melting?) AZ gas has a lot of ethanol and methanol depending on the time of year, unfortunately my boat gets both due to the long season of boating. I think I read somewhere that gas lines and seals have all changed specs do to the new gas additives. I'll look it up also.

Sorry for your pain, but thanks for any pointers.

Offrddrver

 

[pantaloonz]

Off D,

I will provide pictures later, but here's some good info.

The brackets were steel and pressed into a small foam pad on the indents made for them. Those foam pads got work, corroded, and downright rotten and the metal brackets were then directly pressing on the indents of the tank. So that's one pressure/friction point.

The original rubber inserts were on the sides of that ridge, and one the underside of the channel of the origina tank. The obvious intent was to reduce friction/rubbing of the tank against that ridge. The rubber would have been ok, but because of all the goop that's ended up in the compartment it's really taken it's toll on them and eaten them up. If I was just cleaning and putting the old tank back in. I would clean these and reuse them and the concept is sound.

The front/bottom of the tank nearest the engine, where the drain hole is; in the worst condition, but again over time this is where water and recently fuel was pooling. Water was pooling on a regular basis due to a faulty installation of a "Drain" for the compartments in the bow.. the boat was taking on 5 to 6 gallons of water per outing through this drain hole. (right down through the hull) I plugged that hole and will resolve that issue for good this fall when I redo / redesign the deck. Current outings are now taking on a pint or two of water. (much better)

The gas lines are suffering, but I believe it more to be age than anything else, wood can't last forever. The grommets/holes for the fuel lines and vent lines are worn. A lot more worn where they pass through the thin wooden bulkhead. Which you can see in my first set of pictures. I believe there used to be a rubber boot where the fill line and vent line passed through the bulkhead but that's long since gone and the hoses are fraying deteriorating there (I'm addressing that issue with this replacement). The rubber boot on the line TO the engine is in tact and has has a significant impact in keeping that entire hose clear!

The gasket on the sending unit has plain worn out, whether it's fumes or age or combination of both, it's toast. As I mentioned, when the tank is fairly full and I have the boat tilted to allow for drainage, I could clearly see fuel seeping through the sending unit and fill line. The sending unit is a loss. The replacement is $30.00

I do have a logistical issue. I've decided on the 25 Gal replacement. It's more money, but the BOSS wants that one, so she gets it! It's a good solid choice. It's quite a bit less width 18" vs 24" but it's 7.5" tank only. I've only got 9" to play with (the ridge is 3") and then adding the fill components I'm going to leach above the existing decking by more than an inch. so it's time to get a little creative..

Either way I'm putting in a 3" frame cut to the space in order for the new tank to sit flat, (gotta be done)
I plan to give the tank good support and put some sort of padding on the wood so the plastic sits on a pad, not wood. I have some outdoor weather matting that I believe will work awesome for that. And since I'm not letting that get so damn wet anymore, I feel good about it!

This means I've got 1.25" of inlet that's going to pass above the current deck line.

I've got a couple things in mind,

1.) either I can trim out the bulkhead between the tank and engine so that the fill line will be in the "engine compartment" which is not constricted vertically. Shorten the fill hose and connect that way

2.) leave the compartments as it, maybe cut down the valve insert and try and /bend/ the hose to fit. *not a bit fan of this idea

3.) get a 90" flange on it.. but again that adds to the height issue.

I do feel this is the right tank for the job, it helps to write this stuff down, I think seeing it on paper I'm going with option A,, unless of course someone calls me out on being a dummy about it.

-Pantz

 

[Offrddrver]

Pantz,
I find the best fixes come after just talking about it. Best of luck and thanks for the 2cents.

 

[pantaloonz]

All

Super busy, but gas tank was a success. It's NICE knowing how much fuel you have!! In a clean compartment.

Diagnosing a possible water intrusion in the gimbal now... *sigh*

-Pantz