How to repair ladder mount

[Chris611]

I have a '96 Conquest I/O boat. The company is no longer in business. This weekend I noticed that the ladder was coming loose on the outside and also the transom tie down lug was loose. I went to fix them and noticed that there is a void between the outside fiberglass and the inside. I would assume there was something to originally fill the void, not sure what though. I will try to add a pic to show. That area is raised compared to the surrounding areas. Its odd we found both things loose so close together. We've been using the boat twice a week since end of April. Can I just cut the raised fiberglass out and put treated plywood in there then put fiberglass back over it? Any thoughts would be helpfull.

Heres the pics, one is the inside and one the outside of the same area. I added the metal plate as a temporary bandaid. I would like to fix it right.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Hmmm? I would be surprised if that portion of the transom overhang was constructed as a double wall. It's also fairly obvious that it would not have had wood in it. Can you remove the bolts and actually detect a void in between. If so can you slide a piece of wire inside to see if it hits anything in any direction?

Have you pulled the stern eye off of the other side to see what it is like?

If their really is a void, if you could raise the bow until that section is horizontal, remove all fittings, tape the outside holes, drill a quarter size plug out of the inside wall and pour in liquid epoxy till it fills up the void. Then redrill the holes and use bigger spacers on the ladder bolts.

Maybe someone else with that style or brand will be along shortly.

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

I took the other side transom strap lug off and there is a layer of some type of wood. Doesn't look like plywood, it looks like some sort of fiber board? I took the strap mount out of the side that is missing the material. I can run a wire all around in there as far as I can reach. Any chance it's something that can deteriorate and has? What suggestions to fix this? I like the above idea of liquid epoxy as it seems like a simple less invasive fix.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Anyone have thoughts on how I should fix this? I have a couple days off this week and would like to get started on this?

Thanks
Chris

 

[sdunt]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Based on your comments that there is wood in the other side, one would come to the conclusion that there should be wood in this side as well. Plywood and Balsa wood have been used to make laminates.

You need to fill that void in with something solid. The problem is that there is water in that void and possibly the rotted remains to the original wood. You need to get that out of there.

You probably don't want to mess with exterior side of this, so all of your work is going to be from the inside. The ideal way to fix this is to grind out all of the fiberglass on the interior side of this area so you can clean it out and replace the core material. Based on your interior photo, it looks like you're probably not going to be able to work in their real well.

I agree that filling the void up with epoxy is a valid fix, but you need to get the water and junk out of there. if you can cut some type of hole on the inside that you can suck stuff out of with a wet/dry vacuum that would be great. You could also use an air compressor from the mount holes in the outside to blew things to the vacuum intake.

I'm trying to think of a drill you could use to cut the hole on the inside. A hole saw is problematic because of the center drill, it would piece the outside skin. Unless you followed one of the existing mounting holes. If you save the piece you can 'poxy it back in after the repair. Also the wire idea is a good one to use again to clean that area out. Even if you could poke rags into the area to dry it out and clean things up.

You don't want to have some piece of junk left in their that would prevent the epoxy from flowing to fill the entire area and leave you with a void.

Good luck.

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

I think I will try to get that area cleaned out and use some epoxy. I am not familiar with epoxy. Is there a certain type to look for to fill the void?

Thanks
Chris

 

[sdunt]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

The different in Epoxies, is thickness - Viscosity, and setting time. Thick vs thin epoxy is pretty straight forward. Setting time effects the hardness or brittleness of the epoxy. quick setting epoxies are more brittle than slow set.

In this case I personally, would use a thinner slow set epoxy so I could be sure it seaped into all of the spaces in there and also the slow time will have more give to it with out cracking.

I think you said you were on a short time frame, but take a look a the setup time and comments on the US composites epoxy page:
http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html#epoxhard

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Well, I cut the section out, here is a photo of what the inside looked like. I sure couldn't feel all that wood in there, so guess I am glad I cut it out.





I talked to a guy who does fiberglass work and he helped explain to me what to do. He gave me 6 oz fiberglass mat, resin and hardner and a little acetone to clean up. I think he knows his stuff, but isn't very good at giving instructions. He has been doing it so long, that it's second nature to him and speeds through the explanation.

Heres where I need some help. The way I understand it, I can cut a piece of exterior grade plywood and to fit where the existing one went, then I screw it down without screing all the way through the transom. Then I mix the resin and MEK 1 oz per gallon and I should only need a pint or so and use my roller to put on on the wood. Then lay the mat down. Then use my roller and the mix to coat the entire mat until there is no white showing. Making sure to roll down any spots that stick up around the edges. The mat is 1" larger all around then the piece of plywood. I need to sand and clean with acetone the surrounding area before applying the resin. Is this correct. I have searched on the internet, but not found any step by step process. Any help would be appeciated. I am going to try this tommorrow night.

PS. Why is the wood checkerboard patterned?

Thanks guys
Chris

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Just wondered if anyone knows of a good website that shows a more step by step for fiberglass repair. I was hoping to see some pics of what it should look like when done and through the process.

Thanks
Chris

 

[sdunt]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Several things, work with small batches of resin 2 to 4 oz resin for the job you are doing. much more than that and it will get hard before you are done working with it. Here is a catalizing chart for Polyester resins: http://www.fgci.com/howto/ht005catalyst_chart.html

You need to cement the new piece of wood to the existing fiberglass. That means totally clean the area, sand the wood on all sides and the existing figerglass with coarse, 80 grit paper. Clean with acetone. Use a medium set epoxy to glue the wood in place.

To hold the wood in place you might consider marking and drilling the mounting holes for the ladder and using WAXED bolts to clamp the wood in place while the epoxy sets up. If you don't use the bolt holes make sure to seal the holes on the outside with duct tape so the epoxy doesn't leak all over your gelcoat.

You also need to prevent this from happening again because if water gets back up those holes it will start to rot the wood all over again. Once you have the new wood cemented in place, you can remove the bolts and coat the bolt holes with epoxy to seal them. This is not a 100% cure for the water problem. The best method is to go to good ACE/TRUE VALUE hardware or hobby shop that sells K & S tubing..

buy a piece of tubing with an ID size that is two to three sizes bigger than your bolts.. but is still a common drill bit size on the OD..

Bore holes thru the fiberglass and wood and install the tube all the way thru the hole, coat the outside of the tube with epoxy before you install the tube, you want to cement it in place and seal it and the wood you just punched a hole in.

As you install the bolts, shoot caulk/silcone in the tube in between the bolt and the tube to water seal 'the hole in the boat'

the tube isolates/seals/protects from water infusion and isolates it from EVER soakin' into the side walls of your new wood. Kind of like making a drain plug hole but for the motor mounts or any other holes in the transom."

Once the wood is in place and setup, fill the gaps around the edges of the wood with a type of filler that matches the resin type you are going to use. If your using polyester - fiberglass resin, use a polyester based filler. If you are using epoxy to glass this in use an epoxy based filler. If you don't fill in the edges, all of your resin is going to run out of the clothe or mat into the gap and you will have a 'dry' layup.

If you want to use Epoxy to glass in the repair, you can only use fiberglass cloth. Fiberglass matt has a binder in it that only desolves in contact with polyester resin and not epoxy, so the mat will remain stiff and you won't be able to form it. (yes, there are special epoxy mats available, but you probably don't have time to order them)

Because this job is small enought I would suggest using epoxy only and use several layers of fiberglass cloth on the inside. Depending on the thickness of the resin you are using you can either put the cloth down 1st and pour the resin on top, or coat the wood and then put the cloth on top of it.

I used polyester resin and it is generaly thinner than epoxy so I could put the clothe down 1st and pour the resin on top. I thought that let me position the cloth better. you will need a squeege or trowel to spread the resin around and work the bubbles out and a natural bristle, chip, brush is real handy.

Use a resperator with organic filter cartridges on it, both epoxy and poly smell and the fumes they give off will cause brain damage over time..

The checkerboard wood pattern, I dont' know about. Its possible that those are blocks that were glued up in alternating grain directions for increased strength.

I've said, enough now go get to work..

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

sdunt - Excellent write up. That was the information I was looking for. I am using polyester resin. I searched for polyester filler and Bondo comes up as one. Can I use that? Also the area I am working on is 12" x 20", can you give me an approximation of how much resin to mix up so I will have enough?

Thanks
Chris

I see you live in Bloomington, IL. I lived in Mackinaw and worked in Goodfield for 5 years before moving to central IA.

 

[sdunt]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

I used about 4 oz of resin on an 8 inch by 50 inch piece of 7 oz cloth. Now matting uses a TON more resin than cloth. Mat is actually there to build the thickness of the laminate quickly.

So for 12 x 20, assuming 7 to 10 oz clothe, 4 oz would be plenty.

Bondo fillers, generally for cars are polyester based, but their car fillers tend to have things in them that like to absorb water. Their Bondo glass or Bondo Hair, I don't remember the exact name is better. The product you would ideally use is 'Kitty Hair' by evercoat. It is water proof and the fibers in it make the filler stronger.

OK, so you're using Poly. Clean the area out, wipe it down real good with Styrene, if you can find it locally - use acetone if you can't.

Get some fiberglass matting, bondo brand is OK they have small bags of it at wal-mart. Cut the matting to fit in the area where you're putting the plywood. Tape up the holes on the outside, so things dont leak out.

Mix not more than 4 oz of resin, and if you're using the bondo brand resin off the shelf that stuff setup up REALLY fast so get everything in position, take the resin in a small unwaxed cup to your work area, and add the catalyst there, 1 to 1.5 CC for 4 oz resin. brush resin on the repair area, put the mat on top of the free resin. With your bristle brush, (and you can put the bristles shorter to make the brush stiffer), PAT or daub the resin into the mat, if you brush the mat you will get a big ball.

When the resin hits the mat it releases the bonds of the fibers and they are free to move around, if you start to brush it, you'll more all the fibers to one side. (Since this is small job and you will have extra material, do a rest run. Take a piece of cardboard and some scrap or small pieces of mat and resin and 'glass' over the cardboard just to get the experience before your stuck inside the boat hull trying to figure out whats happening)

OK, once you have the mat saturated with resin, take the plywood and coat the back side of it with resin, just paint it on like paint. Put the plywood in place and weight it down, if I recall the area you're working on is horizontal, so put an anchor on top of it to push it down for a good bond.

Let that set for half an hour. It should be setup enough by then to move on. get your filler and mix it, (again a test run is suggested, because if you mix according to the can this stuff will set up in about 5 minutes.) Fill in around the plywood and level with the plywood only, dont fill above the level of the plywood.

We need to bond this repair to the existing fiberglass that means that we need to back up and before we start the rebuild we need to gind the surrounding fiberglass back probaby 6 inches on each side. (This repair is hidden, so cosmetics are not a issue? We're going for a strong repair correct?) So you don't need to taper the existing fiber glass to the height of the plywood, but tapering the surrounding fiberglass would be a good idea.

OK, back to - the plywood is installed and filled in around. The filler will set up rather quickly so we can work on cutting pieces of mat and cloth to cover the patch and the area, 6 inches around, that we ground down. If you have the available material a layer of mat, cloth, mat, cloth - 4 layers would be great. You can just use cloth, but it will not build the thickness as fast as mat does.

Again 4 oz batches of resin will probably come real close to doing 2 layers. The best way to do this is have several like 4 - 4 oz cups are resin all measured out. And your helper, did I forget to mention him or her, will be standing by as you put these layers down and they will catalyze a new 4 oz batch for you as needed and mix each batch by scraping the sides of the cup for 1 full minute before they give it to you.

so as you work in there, you can call for more resin and you should have it in 1 minute to keep going and do it all in one sitting. Now that is not absolutely necessary, but I don't think you want to wait for each layer to totally setup, sand off the finishing wax and they put on another layer.

On a patch this size you should be able to do it in one go, especially if its horizontal and the mat and cloth won't slide down hill..

If you can locate a store in your area that sells pet or horse supplies, you should be able to locate plastic syringes cheaply and you can mark one with a marker for your assistant so they just fill the syringe with MKEP to your mark, spuirt that into the resin and mix..

If you can borrow a fiberglass roller from you friend that will make your tool box complete..

Are we having fun yet?

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Thanks sdunt. Another great write-up. After work today I went around and got everything I needed. I did a test piece tonight with just a small piece of trim on a board. Following your instructions, it went well. It also makes more sense now that I have tried a little bit. I will try the real repair tommorrow. I'll post back how it goes.

Thanks again.
Chris

 

[Chris611]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Well, right or wrong, the fiberglass work is done. It's a good project for someone like me with ADHD. You don't have any time to mess around. It's mix and go. I put down one layer of 6oz mat, one layer of cloth, and then another layer of 6 oz mat. Ending witht he mat, it should look like the rest of the engine compartment. It took about 20 oz of resin to do the entire area. Can I just paint over the fiberglass when it dries or do I need to scuff/sand it some? The rest of the engine compartment fiberglass is painted black.

I figured out why there was a checkerboard pattern. The area is not flat, when I cut out the piece of plywood, it would not fit right, so I cut it into 4" x 4" squares and it then comforms to the contour of the hull area.

Thanks again sdunt. I still have to add the tubes. I had to drive into Des Moines last night to get them. 80 miles round trip. Can I use regular epoxy, like the kind you buy that looks like a siringe with 2 tubes? Or should I use something different?

Thanks
Chris

 

[sdunt]

Re: How to repair ladder mount

Great, glad to hear things are going well. as for painting, since you used an off the shelf resin that includes finishing wax you will need to sand and clean with acetone before painting.

as for epoxying in the tubes can can use the epoxy in the syringes, slower set is better, but in your case I think you're working vertically so getting the 'poxy, and the tubes, to stay in place while it sets could be a challenge.

If you want 'official marine' epoxy, I think I have seen the tubes at Wal-mart in the sporting goods section. All 'poxy is water proof and will work for this application.