Gun law debate...

[Skinnywater]

Re: Gun law debate...

Morality, responsibility, respect, culture and education that stresses these things are absolutely required when involved with a gun.<br />However, these are the very things that are decaying in our society.<br /><br />Guns like so many other things sure are taking a beating by those that dwell in that decay.

 

[PW2]

Re: Gun law debate...

How bout a little science to this argument, and a little less blind assumptions and slogans and catch phrases.<br /><br />I would assume of course, and I would be correct, that the level of violent gun crime in the UK is dramatically less than it is here in the US.<br /><br />And JB is also correct. Rural areas in the US where there are mostly law abiding citizens, who properly train their children in the proper handling of firearms, have also low levels of gun crime.<br /><br />Somewhere in this debate there should be some compromise that should achieve a reasonable result. I don't know where that compromise is, exactly, but I know we won't get there with empty slogans and bumper stickers.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Gun law debate...

PW2, how about this:<br /><br />I keep all my guns and promise not to do anything bad with them, and the state agrees to keep the bad guys behind bars or six feet under.<br /><br />How's that for a compromise?<br /><br />Ya see, it's compromise that has brought us to the point where we are now. American gun owners are not willing to "compromise" any more because the left wants to keep "compromising" until the Second Amendment is gone. All the while, the REAL common sense solutions are ignored---the solutions we inherited and the ones that worked so well for 150 years...criminals behind bars!<br /><br />No more compromising...the Second Amendment lives.

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

"I would assume of course, and I would be correct, that the level of violent gun crime in the UK is dramatically less than it is here in the US."<br /><br />Correct. However, the level of violent crime in general in the UK is probably higher (You are now more likely to get mugged in London than in New York)-and gun crime here is almost exclusively from illegally held (and hence untraceable) weapons. I suspect (though I can't back it up) that the level of gun RELATED crime is probably as high (it's hard to commit violent gun crime with a replica!). I also suspect that the majority of it doesn't get reported for that reason too.<br /><br />Frighteningly, the number of replicas here is enormous. You can't tell these from the real thing unless you're within 2 feet of them. In some cases you can't tell at all. These range from handguns to full replica AK47's and M16's-take a look at these...<br /><br /> http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/Battle_Orders_6mm__BB_Firing_Air_Rifles_5.html <br /><br />You can buy replica handguns over the counter that can be activated within 20 minutes without ID-IF you don't mind losing your hand when they blow up. <br /><br />Considering that the gangs in London, Manchester and Birmingham are now using real H&K's and AK's then the only assumption it's safe to make is that if it looks like a gun then it probably IS a gun...<br /><br />Now bear in mind that in the past 2 years I've had 3 seperate children pointing replicas of that quality at me because their PARENTS BOUGHT THEM FOR THEM as TOYS!!! Bear in mind that the same quality replicas are available as blankfirers and .22 co2 air weapons so you really DONT know what they've got there. I don't even live in a city either.<br /><br />Prohibition has it's own problems-not least that the darwin candidates become this stupidly complacent.

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

Incidentally, the last time a kid pointed a replica at me (he jumped out from behind a parked car into the road and pointed it at my face while I was out on my bike) I grabbed him and dragged him back to his parents. They said...<br /><br />"HE CAN'T DO ANY HARM WE WON'T LET HIM LOAD IT"<br /><br />

 

[aspeck]

Re: Gun law debate...

How about this compromise, PW - the education system allows the NRA to give gun safety and markmanship classes in all schools - a graduation requirement. Then we have gun safety being taught to all kids, and we get to keep our guns.<br /><br />I think hunting is a good deterent for crime - when youth see the damage a bullet will do to a critter, you think twice when you pull the trigger the next time.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Gun law debate...

What I wrote above, societal decay and guns is pretty fundamental.<br />One of the largest causes of societal decay is illegal drugs.<br /><br />I don't know about a compromise but I believe it's time to abandon the failed "War on Drugs" and redirect those tremendous amounts of wasted money, efforts and practices to the alternative.<br />Education, treatment and decriminalization.<br /><br />It might take five years or so but I think all crime, not just gun crime would be cut in half...possibly more.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Gun law debate...

Call me cynical, but I don't think drugs will be legalized for one simple reason---too much money being made in the black market. I would venture a guess that some of that money ends up as lobbying money. So, the "war on drugs" will continue, though it's becoming increasingly evident that it's really just an excuse to errode our rights and a war on individual freedom.

 

[KRS]

Re: Gun law debate...

Point a replica at me.... and end up dead.

 

[JRJ]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by azfyrfyter63:<br /> Point a replica at me.... and end up dead.

I bet my "Fanner 50" would have caused you to unload Maybe my cowboy hat and chaps would have tipped you off? Maybe not

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> Call me cynical, but I don't think drugs will be legalized for one simple reason---too much money being made in the black market. I would venture a guess that some of that money ends up as lobbying money. So, the "war on drugs" will continue, though it's becoming increasingly evident that it's really just an excuse to errode our rights and a war on individual freedom.

Maybe it's time for a "war on hypocrisy"-though I suspect that a large proportion of the major world governments would fall through this...

 

[pjc]

Re: Gun law debate...

quote PW: "And JB is also correct. Rural areas in the US where there are mostly law abiding citizens, who properly train their children in the proper handling of firearms, have also low levels of gun crime.<br /><br />Somewhere in this debate there should be some compromise that should achieve a reasonable result. I don't know where that compromise is, exactly, but I know we won't get there with empty slogans and bumper stickers."<br /><br />You will never see the source of firearm crime addressed in US. Read that as targeting the urban areas populated by druggies and gang bangers. This is a demographic region (black, as well as other minority) that holds the preponderance of gun crime. Not suburban or rural areas. Yet the pols will never commit political suicide and actually target these urban high crime areas by imposing strict enforcement of EXISTING firearm laws due the Liberal ACLUers screaming discrimination and "profiling". This is just a fact.<br /><br />Whats an Amish "drive by" sound like? Clip clop, clip clop, bang, bang, clip, clop......

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by pjc:<br /> <br />Whats an Amish "drive by" sound like? Clip clop, clip clop, bang, bang, clip, clop......

Nah, i'm sure it's Clip clop, clip clop, bang,Powder.....Wadding....ball... bang, clip, clop

 

[AJ168]

Re: Gun law debate...

It's sad what's happened in the UK and unfortunatley, the same thing is happening here. I'm 16, and i've been raised around firearms. I can't even remember when I first learned how to shoot. I can't believe how bad it's getting here in NJ. If you own a gun, you're considered a criminal. I used to be able to shoot right in my backyard. I had a whole range set up with a large dirt backstop and everything. I had to stop because somebody called the cops because they heard gunshots. Come on people. This is rural America. Firearms are a part of life. It's great when you're out hunting and somebody driving by threatens to call the police because you have a firearm, although you're perfectly legal. And what's even better, is that I go to an ROTC high school and we're not allowed to have a rifle team! It's rediculous.<br /><br />So far California has banned .50 caliber firearms and manufacturers are doing something about it. Barrett has stopped selling to and servicing and police depts. If more manufacturers would start making stands, we may get somewhere. <br /><br />I attend the NRA's junior marksmanship qualification program. It's really a great place for people to learn how to handle firearms safely. There's a class and then range time. And there's plenty of certified instructors to teach the kids. Plus it's totally free. If you hear about one of these in your area, I strongly reccomend for you to get as many kids to do it as possible.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Gun law debate...

Nos, the Amish in our area are much more soffisticated than that! You should see the impressive display of fire power during bear and deer season. It looks like someone unlocked Cabelas and said, "Come on in and help yourself."<br /><br />I see the food sticks of choice from our local Amish and and just plain jealous!

 

[PW2]

Re: Gun law debate...

I think many of you are missing the point in this whole debate.<br /><br />Someday, someone is going to get fed up with the incredible number of violent gun crimes in this country, and form a group like MADD.<br /><br />It is already clear that severe restrictions to guns will indeed achieve positive results.<br /><br />I'm sure that an argument can be made, and probably proven to boot, that probably something like 2 % of the guns are responsible for 98% of the problem, but its a distinction without a difference to someone that does not like guns to begin with.<br /><br />Say what you want, but at some point in time, with enough gun deaths, some group is going to get traction on this, just like MADD did with drunk drivers. For my money, if I were an NRA member, I'd want them spending my money trying to get control of the 2 % that cause most of the problem, and be percieved as part of the solution rather than the problem.<br /><br />That 2 % issue is a distiction without a difference to someone that does not like guns at all. If you get all the guns, you are bound to get the 2 % at issue.<br /><br />And the NRA may well have some clout politically, but with maybe 2 million members out of 150 million potential voters, it's a risky strategy to say we don't have a problem.<br /><br />I personally don't care too much. I live in one of the rural areas where there isn't much threat, and when I go to the big city, I tend to go to Toronto where there isn't much chance of being involved in some wacko wielding a concealed handgun, legal or otherwise

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Gun law debate...

The only people that have any thing to loose in this fight are the law abiding gun owners. A majority of the people I associate with own a fire arm of some type. Unless asked out right most of them won’t admit to gun ownership. Why, because they do not want the undo stigma attached with gun ownership in today’s world. Because "Little Johnny & Little Suzie’s" parents wont allow them to play at the kids house who’s parents have guns.<br /> When the laws on the books are enforced, and the root cause of the violence eliminated, if there is still a need for gun control I’ll be the first one in line to support it. Until then go bust the armed robbers, gang bangers, drug dealers, and the rest of the scum of the earth criminals, just leave me and my fire arms alone.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by AJ168:<br /> It's sad what's happened in the UK and unfortunatley, the same thing is happening here.

Your comparing apples to oranges. England has never had a gun culture, their firearm problems do not stem from increased gun control. The valid debates in the U.S do not apply to the English situation, IMO.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> If you get all the guns, you are bound to get the 2 % at issue.

Nice theory, but somehow I don't think it will work. You could make the same arguement about drugs. Although illegal, there is a lot of recreational drug use that does not cause any problems, and a certain percentage that DOES result in problems (probably much higher than 2%).<br /><br />If you get rid of all illegal drugs, you're bound to get rid of the percentage that causes problems.<br /><br />Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to work as well in practice as it does in theory.

 

[AJ168]

Re: Gun law debate...

I've talked to several police officers and detectives and have asked them if they believe that gun control laws do anything to stop criminals from having guns. All of them gave me the same response - absolutely not. It's a proven fact that when an area passes a law allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons, crime actually drops. It makes sense. The criminals know that their victims are no longer defenseless.