Gun law debate...

[Nos4r2]

I live in the UK where as most of you guys already know guns are pretty much banned. Handguns are banned. Shotguns are allowed with a firearms licence which you have to apply to the local police for BEFORE you can even think about purchase (and they are very strict)<br />Rifles etc are in a higher category than shotguns and a lot harder to own.<br /><br />Yet the UK still has a major problem with gun crime and illegal firearms-and the black market for illegal weapons is HUGE and they are easily available to anyone.<br /><br />My thinking is this:-<br />Kids over here don't get taught the same kind of respect for guns that they do over in the USA as they aren't ever expected to go near one. They don't understand about never pointing a loaded weapon at someone. The inner city kids seem to think owning a badly reactivated replica as some kind of status symbol (not understanding that it's as dangerous to fire one of these as it is to be in front of it!).<br /><br />I think that the US gun laws probably work a whole load better than this-but I've never been over to the US so I'm really not qualified to comment. What do you guys think of our system and yours?

 

[rwise]

Re: Gun law debate...

My nephew has had a hand gun in his tackle box since he was 6 years old. He is 19 now and one of the most responsible young men I know. In the inner city here the kids see guns on TV and in video games and think its kool to have one and never realize the guns are deadly and will be the one to go out and kill someone with a gun. Its all about how you raise your kids around guns. some are better teachers than others. IF the parenting is there, no problem. Guns will always be on the black market, same with drugs, and stolen goods. Banning guns in the home only means that you cannot defend your self!<br /><br />I'll give up my gun when they pry my cold dead fingers off from it!

 

[PW2]

Re: Gun law debate...

What are the statistics of crime related gun injuries and deaths in the UK per capita vs the US?

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Gun law debate...

"Gun control" is not about making safer societies---even though many ill-informed but well-intentioned folks may think it is...it is about stripping people of rights and power and establishing TYRANNY.<br /><br /><br />-dd-

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> What are the statistics of crime related gun injuries and deaths in the UK per capita vs the US?

I couldn't tell you PW2-the UK government are so heavily into fudging statistics to meet their own ends that anything I could find will be so horrendously inaccurate it's not worth reading.<br /><br />One statistic they were busily touting was that the number of deaths from legally held handguns dropped dramatically since handguns were made illegal...<br /><br />Says it all really.

 

[PW2]

Re: Gun law debate...

So how can you tell whether or not the UK has a "huge" problem, and how exactly do you define "huge"?

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

Good point- maybe we don't have a problem. Saying that, the UK media is now full of reports of gang related shootings, and the statistics that ARE being released suggest that the number of illegally held guns is rising rapidly-and it's in the news on a daily basis now. 10 years ago it was unheard of.

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

just found this.....9% of homicides in the UK in 2004 were the result of shootings.<br /><br />For a country that effectively bans the use of guns except in controlled circumstances that's pretty appalling.

 

[PW2]

Re: Gun law debate...

It depends on how many homicides there are in total. 9 % of a small number is a smaller number yet<br /><br />No one ever suggested that banning handguns would totally eliminate gun related crime--only reduce it. To the extent it does that has a value to a society. The debate is whether that value is worth the price paid.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Gun law debate...

Hmmm. I'll never understand why people think that banning something will make CRIMNALS follow that law. By definition, CRIMNALS dont follow the laws.<br /><br />There is no way to prevent a black market. PERIOD.<br /><br />The only thing your ban does is to make the criminals pay high prices for guns.<br /><br />And it probably cuts down on "fits of rage" related shootings. But, a whap in the head from a cricket bat is almost as effective.<br /><br />Ken

 

[JRJ]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by rwise:<br /> My nephew has had a hand gun in his tackle box since he was 6 years old. He is 19 now and one of the most responsible young men I know. In the inner city here the kids see guns on TV and in video games and think its kool to have one and never realize the guns are deadly and will be the one to go out and kill someone with a gun. Its all about how you raise your kids around guns. some are better teachers than others. IF the parenting is there, no problem. Guns will always be on the black market, same with drugs, and stolen goods. Banning guns in the home only means that you cannot defend your self!<br /><br />I'll give up my gun when they pry my cold dead fingers off from it!

A 6 year old with a handgun? I'm glad he didn't have to "pop a cap" on another 1st grader That kind of gun control doesn't help responsible gun owners at all. Unbelievable.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by KenImpZoom:<br /> Hmmm. I'll never understand why people think that banning something will make CRIMNALS follow that law. By definition, CRIMNALS dont follow the laws.<br />

Stupid human trick...try to cure the symptom of the problem, and maybe the source will go away too. Want the future? Nobody is going to give damn about the millions of rules being made DAILY. Case in point... our Homeowners ***. has probably 50 pages of By-Laws, and another 50 in rules. I didn't even bother to read them this year. Only one out of 7 even vote at the annual meeting. Took out the speed bumps and put in stop signs to slow people down (private, end of peninsula, no way out, so neighbors only), and most people just sail right those signs, and we have kids on gokarts and minis, quads..... just insane idiots, and getting dumber everyday. A little of subject, but sometines ya gotta vent.

 

[QC]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by rwise:<br /> Its all about how you raise your kids around guns.

When I was 13 I had the first chance to hold a gun. My parents never let me near one and I was expressley forbidden to shoot a friend's etc. I was over at a very good friend's house who had been shooting since he was much younger. Mostly trap and skeet and bird hunting. He was very responsible and had warned me and others to stay away from their guns etc. (never mind the gun cabinet cracks please). We were cutting class and the good friend was actually not there, can't remember why not, but just me and another guy at the house. We got a hold of a 22 rifle and went out into the backyard to shoot it right in the middle of the neighborhood!!! Anyway, as I went to shoot it I lost my nerve (maybe an ounce of sense kicked in) and I just let the barrel drop down toward the ground as I held it with the trigger hand. When it jerked as I let it fall it fired directly into the concrete patio within an inch of my foot. The other guy and I got sprayed pretty good with concrete, but we were not visibly hurt at all. Just very lucky.<br /><br />Anyway, the point to this long post is probably not what you are thinking. I now parent more like the post from rwise. What almost got me in trouble was a fascination with guns that was in no way tempered by any knowledge or respect for them. I have taught all of my kids to shoot, because I will not always have control of what is left within their reach the rest of their lives. I almost shot my foot off or worse becasue I didn't have a clue and was literally "playing" with a gun!!!<br /><br />BTW, I also support the "criminal" posts by KIZ and Robby. I have also spent a lot of time in the UK and based on news reports they find plenty of ways to kill each other which supports the "guns dont't kill people, people do" stuff.

 

[JB]

Re: Gun law debate...

In rural USA guns are common and gun crime isn't.<br /><br />I firmly believe that one of the reasons I have not been robbed or burglarized (since I moved out of the city) is that those guys expect to get shot if they try that. . . uh. . .er. . ."stuff" out here in the sticks.<br /><br />Responsible and competent gun owners are a definite deterrent to crime. Responsibility and competence are important.

 

[DJ]

Re: Gun law debate...

My thinking is this:-<br />Kids over here don't get taught the same kind of respect for guns that they do over in the USA as they aren't ever expected to go near one. They don't understand about never pointing a loaded weapon at someone. The inner city kids seem to think owning a badly reactivated replica as some kind of status symbol (not understanding that it's as dangerous to fire one of these as it is to be in front of it!).<br />

BINGO!!!!<br /><br />Guess what, it can/does.<br /><br />If it's not real, in their eyes, it can't happen. Have you seen the "spinning" videos of what todays youth are doing with automobiles? It's sickening. No respect, no fear (out of ignorance). Automobiles, today, are viewed by youth as nothing more than toasters. They see NO danger.<br /><br />We've (USA) done ourselves a serious disservice by taking weapons discussions out of the norm. <br /><br />Guns do not kill people, people kill people. A tired but TRUE cliche'. <br /><br />I have yet to hear a coherent argument, against arms, of that statement. But, common sense and politics, do not mix.<br /><br />Common sense says give the power to the people. <br /><br />Politics says, take it away.<br /><br />Enough said.

 

[fireman57]

Re: Gun law debate...

Gun education is a must. Been around them all my life. My Dad never hunted but my uncle took my older brothers out and taught them responsible gun handling and almost as importantly responsible hunting. They in turn passed this on to me. I am down to only owing four guns at the present but I use the four that I have. 9mm is with me and yes I have a permit, 12 gauge is for rabbit and bird hunting, the 22-.250 is for groundhogs, coyotes, and varmit hunting, and my .22 is for target shooting and recreation. The .22 is also the rifle that was the first gun that my sons learned safety and shooting with. The only reason for gun control is so the government knows where they all are so if need be they can go get them to put down any kind of revolt. Once you have to register all guns, which thankfully we don't have to do yet, then you can look for trouble. The right was written into the constitution for one reason and it was to let the people have a way to revolt against a tyrannical government.We are lucky in the U.S. so far. The problem know is finding a place to hunt and get permission for. I can see in about ten years that my sons will not have a place to hunt except public land which here is overcroweded now with irresponsible people from town who think nothing of shooting anything that moves or anywhere they like without knowing what is on the other side of whatever they are shooting. As long as I can hang onto the farm then my boys will have a few patches to hunt if they want to but they will have to learn to manage the game as I have. So far they haven't shown a lot of interest in the sport but they still like going a couple times a year.

 

[JRJ]

Re: Gun law debate...

I haven't studied why guns are so controlled in England but we constantly debate our "Right to Keep and Bear Arms." Among other beliefs, we feel that "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." We are saddened by the misuse of guns, but do not blame the guns or ammunition. We know that bad people do bad things, but bad people put to death are never bad again. Poor and or corrupt law business (the law is just another business IMO) that allows bad people to "walk" is a problem for us all.

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by JRJ:<br /> "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Just the situation we're left with here...<br /><br />Sucks when a statement like that is right.

 

[Twidget]

Re: Gun law debate...

I know that in our area, carjacking decreased dramatically after concealed carry passed. <br /><br />We also haven't had a recurrence of the Lubys incident.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Gun law debate...

Originally posted by Nos4r2:<br />

Originally posted by JRJ:<br /> "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Just the situation we're left with here...<br /><br />Sucks when a statement like that is right.

Exactly what happens when we listen to a bunch of liberals spouting their kinder, safer, fairer jingoistic nonsense. <br /><br />The fact is Nos4r2, in these United States, the antigun arguement has virtually nothing to do with those issues even though they are the ones that are given. It is but one element of one party's unrelenting quest to destroy traditional American individuality and sense of self reliance and responsibily and to make as many people as possible defacto wards of the state. Or should I have said 'wards of the Democratic Party'.