gotta be kidding!

[mattttt25]

Re: gotta be kidding!

my- don't think your t shirt would be next, because it wouldn't cause a disturbance. in this case, and in many others, the majority rules. most americans would love to see you wear your t shirt, even if they currently don't like what the government is doing. but as soon as someone wears a shirt that is against the common belief, against what our country stands for, it causes a disturbance, and in this case the mall has every right to ask them to leave. just imagine if right after 9/11 someone walked through the mall wearing a shirt that said "leave poor osama alone"? would he be causing a disturbance? i think so...<br /><br />snapper- i don't think they have a right. last time i checked, a mall was a privately owned entity (allowed by this great, democratic, free country we live in). they are allowed to set rules. if someone doesn't follow the rules, they are punished. if the rules bother someone, shop elsewhere. they have that RIGHT.

 

[SCO]

Re: gotta be kidding!

I don't have a problem with peace Plywoody. I have a problem with their mindset. For them, gleaned by the tenor of the report,this exercise was like civics lesson, or revisit to the golden days of the 60's peace marches. The people that are undermining our President's and troop's resolve, while playing into the hands of our enemies, are risking the peace. Peace is not freely obtained, and can only be maintained by strength and resolve greater than our enemy's in a situation like this.

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Not knowing the situation and not being there it is hard to judge why security had the reaction they did. As far as legality of the actions taken by the mall they are perfectly appropiate. A mall is a privately run buisness and can refuse to allow anyone that they feel is causing or would cause a disturbance by thier actions, words or clothing. A mall is not a public place and as such the mall employes acting upon thier best judgment followed an appropiate course of action. I don't care what the shirt said, what was on the shirt or why the shirt was being singled out it is up to the mall owners and it's representitives to determine what they will and will not allow. This does not violate anyone's "rights" as was said the mall is a private place. Anyone ever been somewhere that proper dress is required? I know a bar that will not allow you in if you are wearing a hat. This rule includes ball caps, "cowboy" hats, dress hats and even stocking caps for warmth. The reason they can do this is because it is a private place.

 

[roscoe]

Re: gotta be kidding!

This situation is a lot like what ***screenname went thru on that other website. The mall management and security have a right and responsibility to control the activities that take place within the confines of their PRIVATE property. They probably also have contractual obligation so the leesees in the mall. The mall is not a public forum. You are there as their guest.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Funny how the mall is a puplic place when they they ban smoking in public places but a private place when it comes to the wearing of a T shirt?? I would say its owned by a private corperation but still a puplic place.<br /><br />-------------<br />Flathead

 

[SCO]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Considering the Mall owners liability, you make a great point Roscoe.

 

[plywoody]

Re: gotta be kidding!

From a legal standpoint, you guys are wrong. A mall is indeed a public place, and if you want to ban some activity, you better have a good reason for it. There certainly can be banned dress and activities, but you better be able to show that there is a specific good reason for the ban that does not trample on an individual rights or risk legal action.<br />Majority rule is one thing, but there is a reason the constitution was not ratified without the bill of rights, which is the majority trampling the rights of the minority.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Well then, since my buisness is a private place that must mean I can discriminate against anyone I choose and for any reason I choose?.... WRONG!!! <br /><br />So, lets say I refused to allow a person in my shop because he/she is Hispanic... If it was reported, how long do you think it would take for my butt to end up in a sling with the authorities, the ACLU, and anyone else who decided to sue my butt off????

 

[FLATHEAD]

Re: gotta be kidding!

My point exactly Snapper.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: gotta be kidding!

you guys are doing what often happens in these debates- taking a point you want to make and forgetting the original issue. we're not talking about discrimination here. the fellas were not asked to leave because they were muslim, spanish, or american. they were asked to leave because the management felt they could cause a disturbance based on their clothing and it's message. they could have stayed and shopped til their hearts content if they just took off the shirts. could you do it in your little shop that services 15 hp rudes? probably not, how could it create a disturbance? but a mall, where many congregate to shop, must remain peaceful. the management wants all the customers to behave, and a provoking (in management's eyes) t-shirt isn't tollerated.

 

[roscoe]

Re: gotta be kidding!

OK snapperbait, lets say 3 PETA activists show up and protest your business because they have pictures of you killing a fish. You certainly have the right to have them ousted. But you don't have the right to let an arguement get heated and turn to violence. Actually, you have an obligation to limit and deter any violence. So you call the pd and have them take care of it.<br /><br />And you can ban smoking in your business. You can have rules as to the number of students allowed in your store at one time. And you can limit and regulate the other activities on the premises. Such as street vendors, dance recitals, craft shows and what can be sold, AND<br /> "public displays or speach that may interfere with the normal operation of business." <br /><br />But you can't hold a public display on public property, without first getting a permit and meeting the requirements of the governing body.

 

[BassMan283]

Re: gotta be kidding!

I think the time is right to start burning suspected witches at the stake again. If you don't agree with me, you should be in prison.

 

[bayman]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Remember that the news media likes to get everyone all upset. Often there are perfectly legit reasons for arrests. I've been at some things and seen it first hand. The news media presents it totally different in order to try and get a reaction from people. I'm guessing the same thing may have happened here.

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: gotta be kidding!

I don't know, but if you are in a mall, restaurant, movie theater, or any other privately owned business and they ask you to leave, for whatever reason and you don't, then they can have you removed, whether it's right or wrong, they have that right cause they own the place.<br />And I don't know about other places, but here in Kentucky, malls are privately owned.<br />You can not go into a mall and set up a booth and start selling things cause they own it.<br />If you want to have a fundraiser at a mall, you have to get permission, not just go there and have at it.<br />No, whether they like it or not, a mall is privately owned and they have rules that you have to live by.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Matttt25... I don't want to make any point... But, What? We're not talking about discrimination here.? Why we most certainly are talking about discrimination here... These two men were discriminated against because they choose to wear a shirt that expresses their opinion on a subject of great debate as of late... According to the article, as far as I can see the only person making trouble was the Macy's employee who reported them to security, not the two men in question... <br /><br />Is their opinion right or wrong? It does not matter one way or the other... It's their right as an American citizen to have an opinion and disageree with whom ever they choose, even if its the US government..<br /><br />Now, don't get me wrong and start a witch hunt BassMan283 cause as far as I'm concerned, the U.S.A. should tell the U.N. to kiss off and go ahead and bomb the entire middle east back to the stone age... Problem solved... Do we agree?...<br /><br />As far as roscoe's PETA wacko's, send em' on over... Sure, I could have them removed, but I'll invite them all inside and we'll have milk and cookies and my customers would all get a big laugh at the PETA dudes expense... I guarntee the PETA wackos would leave thinking "this guy and his customers are even crazier than we are".. Maybe I could hire the PETA folks as sort of a side show act and charge admission... Might even help buisness a little... Never know?? Might work..<br /><br />One other thing I've often wondered about and not that I have a problem with this but I wish to use this as an example ... Why must I comply with city, county, and state laws which dictate that if I/my private buisness has a restroom inside the premesis that is accessable by my patrons a.k.a the general public, it must have special access for handicap persons... Same goes for ramps to access stairs, parking and ect.. Why must I meet all fire codes by having extinguishers in specific places... The list of regulations goes on and on...<br /><br />See, there's a very fine line between what is public and what is private so be careful...

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: gotta be kidding!

snapperbait, you answered your own question in your question when you said "PUBLIC"<br />Once you do that, then you are required to have it where anyone can access it.<br />To get around this, post you a sign, if you want to, that says "No public restroom".<br />I don't know what the law is in Florida, but here in Kentucky, just because you own a business doesn't mean you have to provide the customers or public with a restroom.<br />Like I said, that is up to you.<br />As far as being handicap accessible, thats the norm nowadays if you own any kind of business that has the general public coming in, it has to be accessible by the handicap also.<br />As far as fire extinguishers go, thats a no brainer.<br />I would hate to see my shop go up in smoke cause I did not have one around when I needed it.<br />Just my .02 worth so take it like you would from anyone this far north.

 

[JB]

Re: gotta be kidding!

Hmmm.<br /><br />I've seen this reported by the liberal media about half a dozen times now.<br /><br />None of those reports included:<br /><br />1.The sign banning disruptive messages on T shirts.<br /><br />2. The near riot caused a few days before by anti-GWB demonstrators.<br /><br />3. That the man was arrested for trespassing (refusing to leave private property when asked), not for his protest. Call it public if you like, the law calls it private property.<br /><br />EACH reported that he was arrested for wearing the T shirt.<br /><br />Just one more example of selective reporting distorting a story.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: gotta be kidding!

snapper- i see your point, but we'll have to agree to disagree. you think it's discrimination, but i see it as punishment for breaking an enforeable rule. just how you look at it. spent several hours at the bar last night talking it over with my cousin and her friend (two young lawyers). we all agree the mall will drop charges. then the groups will get the men to sue the mall. in the end, everything will be dropped but it will make the media and cost taxpayers a fortune.

 

[magster65]

Re: gotta be kidding!

moved to proper thread... oops.

 

[brent suzkui wyble j16]

Re: gotta be kidding!

i agree with both matttt25 and Spinner 100%, someone ask you to get out, you get out, why stay somewhere your not welcome anyway, or if your going to stay follow the rules. Snapper i dont know for sure but dont you have to have access to restrooms for your patrons, not the general public? ive seen signs that say restrooms for customers only here in north florida.