GFCI outlets question

[Fl_Richard]

Re: GFCI outlets question

When I bought a house a few years ago part of the house inspection, also part of the new code in VA at least, was the all outlets in kitchens and bathrooms that were with in 10' of a water source needed to be a GFI outlet.

I think that rule read protected by a GFCI - I've never heard of needing a GFCI Outlet at every location. Thats just silly.

Now Arc Faults.... They are just plain evil dont get me going....

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: GFCI outlets question

I think that rule read protected by a GFCI - I've never heard of needing a GFCI Outlet at every location. Thats just silly....

yep gfci protected. read the instructions on a gfci recepticals and it will say do not mount in wet location...

 

[bigdee]

Re: GFCI outlets question

yep gfci protected. read the instructions on a gfci recepticals and it will say do not mount in wet location...

This is true for any GFCI outlet whether it is a GFCI receptacle or a standard receptacle fed by a GFCI receptacle or GFCI breaker.
A bathroom or kitchen is not defined by the NEC as a wet location. Outdoor receptacle are defined as "wet location" and must have weather proof covers.

 

[bigdee]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Now Arc Faults.... They are just plain evil dont get me going....

Only in old homes or new homes wired by evil electricians

 

[Tempelton]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Not according to the House Inspector performing the inspection, he specifically said all outlets within 10' and the real estate agent we used told me that was the case after the inspector left as i did indeed question that part.

 

[bigdee]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Not according to the House Inspector performing the inspection, he specifically said all outlets within 10' and the real estate agent we used told me that was the case after the inspector left as i did indeed question that part.

ALL receptacles in kitchen,dinning room,bathrooms, outside and garages must be GFCI. I don't doubt the 10 foot rule that you stated because ANY JURISDICTION can taylor make code requirements ABOVE the NEC. It is the local inspector who has the final say....and as a person who has dealt with building inspectors many times, don't buck him,it is yes sir & no sir.

 

[NYBo]

Re: GFCI outlets question

In DINING rooms??

 

[bigdee]

Re: GFCI outlets question

In DINING rooms??

The NEC does not require them in dinning room UNLESS the outlet is within 6' of edge of a sink. Since most dinning room adjoin the kitchen there may be one outlet that is within 6' of a sink. To avoid confusion my local jurisdiction and many others in N.C. Require dinning rooms to be on GFCI...period.
What many people fail to understand is the NEC is just the minimum standard and many jurisdictions go beyond what the NEC states. It is a PITA for contractors because there is no one standard for all the jurisdictions he may cover. When I was a contractor I wired all buildings to the requirements of the strictest (or strangest) jurisdiction....a one size fits all approach. Treat inspectors as gods and life is good OR question them and life is H*ll

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: GFCI outlets question

The requirement is that they are protected, not that all of them are gfci outlets. That would be a pointless waste of money with zero benefit.

Never heard of a dining room needing gfci's, 12g wire(20amp) but not gfci unless there is a sink.

As for the split receptacles, I'm assuming you mean they break the tab on duplex outlets and put one on each circuit like a switched outlet to turn a light on. Don't see the point.

Templeton- home inspectors are not building inspectors, sure they took a class but in my experience there is a big difference between the two. My favorite home inspector line is stating the "recommended... is", which is great your saying you'd like to see it that way, not the code be it NEC or local. Just like in your case, because saying they all need to be is just him showing off how much he didn't get what he was supposed to learn in class. I've even heard them tell people that a gfci breaker is not a gfci!

When if come to real building inspectors- to me it's a lot like law enforcement officers, I would never yes sir/ no sir either of them. Treat them like people and you'll never have a problem. Every time a building inspector inspects something the simple fact of the matter is that they cannot look at it all so in part they are really looking at the craftsmanship of your work and checking a few key details. Yes if you try pulling a fast one your in for it, but don't fear asking them about things most would love to make sure you fully understand what and why something should be done as it should. In fact a few times they have asked me why I did something like I did because no one else does that and I've had to explain to them why and show them what on the engineering sheets they needed to look at and what the key points are. Don't fear them and don't try scamming them, you'll be alright.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: GFCI outlets question

The requirement is that they are protected, not that all of them are gfci outlets. That would be a pointless waste of money with zero benefit.

Never heard of a dining room needing gfci's, 12g wire(20amp) but not gfci unless there is a sink.

You are arguing semantics...and not very well.:facepalm:
What you mean is that they don't all have to be GFCI receptacles....but nobody else has said that they do.
If they are GFCI protected, referring to them as GFCI outlets is both correct and reasonably descriptive.
I've never heard of GFCIs being required in a dining room either. But my working knowledge of codes is restricted to amateur DIY work in my own home....a general knowledge of my local code.....and getting up to speed when i have a project. There are Code differences all over North America. I'd never be presumptuous enough to think that because I did not know a code item from somewhere else, that it didn't exist.

As for the split receptacles, I'm assuming you mean they break the tab on duplex outlets and put one on each circuit like a switched outlet to turn a light on. Don't see the point.

You don't know what they are, but you're ag'in 'em?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, it is a requirement of our our Electrical Code. You see, the Electrical Code governs all electrical work in this jurisdiction, not sure how things work in your area....(although I suspect it is exactly the same format. )
When I had the work inspected, I do not believe that I could simply have told the inspector that "I didn't see the point"....so i did it so as to comply with our Code.
In fact they are really a sound idea. I can plug a waffle iron and a kettle into any receptacle in my kitchen and not have to run downstairs to reset the breaker or R&R a fuse).
Any measure that removes an ongoing source of circuit overload has to be a good thing.

 

[bigdee]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Never heard of a dining room needing gfci's, 12g wire(20amp) but not gfci unless there is a sink.

It is common for the kitchen sink to be within 6' of a dinning room receptacle

When if come to real building inspectors- to me it's a lot like law enforcement officers, I would never yes sir/ no sir either of them. Treat them like people and you'll never have a problem.

I don't FEAR inspectors, I believe in giving people respect and I like to be addressed as Sir too. Know-it-alls and inspectors are a bad mix.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Well if you could read back a couple post Tim you would understand what I was talking about, not arguing semantics. It's a point many people mess up on and purchase multiple gfci outlets instead of just wiring them to the load side, wasting lots of money.

Sorry if my asking you to clarify what you were talking about by split outlets bothered you, didn't seem that anybody got what you were referring to. Now my saying I don't see the point is cause I don't see the point! Put more than one circuit in the kitchen and you can run everything you want also, your just not splitting every single outlet. It's the exact same thing, just done different. One that costs more and makes gfci protection more difficult because you now have to worry about the split outlets. Hence the reason I don't see the point.:facepalm: Either way I'm doubting a tract home built in 1979 in Rochester was wired that way, so I guess it's not really relevant what different codes the have in different countries than the OP. It was interesting to hear the different approach to something though.

Big Dee- ya man thanks for agreeing with me on "unless there's a sink" and on being cool to inspectors. I know one big thing worse then know it all's and inspectors though. People acting off like they are hiding something and just want them to go away.

So how about the no mechanical bends thing? How to you hook up a ground screw? Crimp on a ring terminal? How is that better than a mechanical bend no that's a code I really don't get!

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: GFCI outlets question

So how about the no mechanical bends thing? How to you hook up a ground screw? Crimp on a ring terminal? How is that better than a mechanical bend no that's a code I really don't get!

i thought that crimping to a solid wire was against code.

last inspector i dealt with had a problem with direct burial romex in conduit as it came out of the ground in to a shed from the outside wall. i thought that code required adequate protection against damadge so i used over sized pvc to protect against the strimmer. after i offered to remove it from the pvc he lost intrest and signed off on it.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Well if you could read back a couple post Tim you would understand what I was talking about, not arguing semantics. It's a point many people mess up on and purchase multiple gfci outlets instead of just wiring them to the load side, wasting lots of money.

What I meant was that in a circuit with the first device being a GFCI receptacle, if the downstream outlets are connected properly, they are also GFCI outlets.

Sorry if my asking you to clarify what you were talking about by split outlets bothered you, didn't seem that anybody got what you were referring to. Now my saying I don't see the point is cause I don't see the point! Put more than one circuit in the kitchen and you can run everything you want also, your just not splitting every single outlet. It's the exact same thing, just done different. One that costs more and makes gfci protection more difficult because you now have to worry about the split outlets. Hence the reason I don't see the point.:facepalm: Either way I'm doubting a tract home built in 1979 in Rochester was wired that way, so I guess it's not really relevant what different codes the have in different countries than the OP. It was interesting to hear the different approach to something though.

No need to be sorry.
You said that you didn't see the point before you said that you knew what we were talking about....

Putting more than one circuit in a kitchen is not as effective (and definitely not the same) as the split receptacles. Unless you properly label the outlets so that you know which is which, you'll still blow a breaker when you manage to plug a kettle and toaster, for example, into the same circuit.
I like them....and wired my kitchen that way ....not just to meet code.

If your codes don't require them, no harm no foul.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: GFCI outlets question

Putting more than one circuit in a kitchen is not as effective (and definitely not the same) as the split receptacles. Unless you properly label the outlets so that you know which is which, you'll still blow a breaker when you manage to plug a kettle and toaster, for example, into the same circuit.
I like them....and wired my kitchen that way ....not just to meet code.

If your codes don't require them, no harm no foul.

i liked the idea of this i was just more surprissed that only one netrual was run unless Canada is the same as america and used 2 phases. i thought Canada was like the uk and used 240v on one phase

 

[bruceb58]

Re: GFCI outlets question

i liked the idea of this i was just more surprissed that only one netrual was run unless Canada is the same as america and used 2 phases. i thought Canada was like the uk and used 240v on one phase

The US is only one phase. You may think its 2 phases but is not since the 2 hots come from the same transformer with the neutral coming from the center tap.

 

[cribber]

Re: GFCI outlets question

People often refer to feeds as phases when talking about 115 and 230 power.

 

[bigdee]

Re: GFCI outlets question

i liked the idea of this i was just more surprissed that only one netrual was run

There is no reason to run separate neutrals on a MWBC because theoretically it will not carry the current of both receptacles at the same time....AC,alternating current. Only one receptacle at a time (8.3 milliseconds) can be on.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: GFCI outlets question

People often refer to feeds as phases when talking about 115 and 230 power.

Yes, people that don't understand do.

Its technically one phase no matter what people call it. The two legs may look 180? out of phase from each other but that is just because you are referencing the voltage from the center tap of the transformer. The power is coming into the transformer as one phase(typically).

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: GFCI outlets question

The US is only one phase. .

You don't have 3-phase service down there?
Learn something new every day.