Fuses needed or not?

The Revenge

Seaman
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I'm wiring up my whaler restoration from scratch. It turns out my design is almost identical to a recommendation or example under the sticky thread that has wiring diagram examples.

My question is do I need to install fuses down stream of the batteries before the battery selector switch?

I wasn't planning on it. Nor does it show that in the sample wiring diagram on the other page.
I keep reading or hearing of the positive wires from the battery have to be fused within 7". Something I've never heard of or done before.
I have attached the portion of the wiring example I'm speaking of. Again my question is do the positive wires from the batteries need to be fused before the battery selector?
Thanks
 

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tazrig

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Just poured through a bunch of schematics to be sure but no you don't need a fuse from the battery to the selector. If you're using multiple batteries you might want to put in an isolater circuit:


Isolater Circuit.jpg
 

sam am I

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

MOUNTING PLACEMENT, DISTANCE FROM POWER SOURCE: The DC Main circuit protection system uses circuit breakers or fuses to protect the wires of the DC Main distribution system.

The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) publishes voluntary standards for the type and placement of the fuse or circuit breaker to be used as a DC Main circuit protection device. The diagram below shows the required placement of main circuit protection devices.

Note that wire intended to carry engine starting currents between the batteries, the switch, and the starter, is not required to have main circuit protection devices installed.

Mounting placement dimensions for a fuse or circuit breaker (7"/40"/72" ABYC rule): 7 inch maximum if the conductor is not housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation, 40 inch maximum if the conductor is housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation, 72 inch maximum if the conductor is connected directly to the battery and housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation.



x.jpg


This was in 2010..........Perhaps there's newer/different guidelines specific to this but, I think it's the same still. The type of battery switch here is irrelevant to the guidelines above.
 
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The Revenge

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

So based on the statement in bold, I'm not required to install the extra fuses. "Note that wire intended to carry engine starting currents between the batteries, the switch, and the starter, is not required to have main circuit protection devices installed."

Even though the engine start wire will start out on the common post at the battery selector switch:
Battery 1 wire will go to the battery selector and if selector is on 1, then battery 1 wire will be used to start the motor.
Same for battery 2.
Is that how you guys read this also?
Thanks
 

sam am I

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Yes....

Both batts "+" wires from the batts. to the MAIN switch unfused. From the "common" post of the main switch to the MOTOR's STARTER unfused. That is fine and is standard/best practice as far as I can tell and have experienced. The drawing you have is correct as per these guidelines and as shown, ANY other wires leading off the batts and/or main switches it appears follow the 7"/40"/72" ABYC rule.
 
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UncleWillie

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

In this case you will be using #2 or #4 AWG wire in the engine starting circuits.
Is is common practice to Not fuse this wiring because they routinely draw currents that can exceed the continuous current rating of the wire.
When you first hit the starter, the current draw can exceed 1000 amps for a very short fraction of a second before the starter actually gets the engine turning.

A 100 Amp fuse would be blowing on a regular basis, and a 1000 amp fuse might not blow and smoke all the wiring in a fault condition.
Dress the wire neatly so they can not rub against anything and hope that they never short out.
 
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The Revenge

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Thanks, but, "hope they never short out"?
Why would they short out.
 

gm280

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

There are ways to determine the maximum amperage your starter circuit could possible draw. But you will need a micro-ohm meter to see what the total resistance is in the starter. And then use Ohm's law for the answer. It is impossible to draw more current then the resistance of the starter would allow... So you could install a fusible link in that circuit for catastrophic shorting. Just a thought!
 

bruceb58

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

But you will need a micro-ohm meter to see what the total resistance is in the starter. And then use Ohm's law for the answer. It is impossible to draw more current then the resistance of the starter would allow...
I think if you actually measured that it, your answer would be 10,000 amps which obviously would happen for more than milliseconds. Most motors have stall specs(for a few seconds)...problem is finding what they are.
 
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sam am I

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Typical "Engine Cranking Cycle" before starting. Seen is Inrush spike captured along with running cranking current versus time from a diesel engine.

Each square vertically represents 200 Amps and each square horizontally represents 0.2 seconds. This looks to be about 1000 amps.

20505.jpg
 
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UncleWillie

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Typical "Engine Cranking Cycle" before starting. Seen is Inrush spike captured along with running cranking current versus time from a diesel engine. Each square vertically represents 200 Amps and each square horizontally represents 0.2 seconds. This looks to be about 1000 amps.

View attachment 222435


The chart is a perfect example of why fusing the circuit would be impractical.

The current peaks at 1000 amps for a few 10s of milliseconds and is down to 400 amps in about 1/4 of a second.
Within a 1/2 second it settles out near 200 amps!

The smallest fuse that "Likely" would not blow consistently would be around 500 amps.

#2 AWG wire rated at 90C (194F, really HOT!) is rated at 130 AMPs continuous.
It can handle the 200-400 cranking amps for up to 30 seconds if you let it cool between starts.

Any fuse Smaller than 400 amps is going to be nuisance as it continuously blows.
Any fuse Larger than 130 amps would allow the cable to destructively over heat in the event of a continuous overload.

The only real option is to Not fuse it. Install it using the best wiring practices, and inspect it routinely before any disaster happens.
We have been doing this in our automobiles for over a hundred years and engine electrical fires are something that most will never experience in a lifetime.
 

Auger01

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Just to add a little perspective here, I would submit that while no fusing is required in a starting circuit, there is nothing that prohibits it either.

If you look at the typical response curve for the average 100 amp circuit breaker of fuse, you will see that it doesnt instaneously open when the current reaches 100.00001 amps. As long as your fuse is slighly larger than the continous cranking current of the engine, you should not experience any nusiance trips.

As a practical example of this, I have two batteries in my own boat that are protected with 200 amp breakers each. The 2ga battery cable then runs aft to a F90 Yamaha. I did an experiment where I cranked the engine (with the fuel cut off) on one battery for as long as I felt comfortable which was about six or seven seconds and the breaker did not trip. In fact they have never tripped in normal service.

Blue Sea Breaker Trip Curve:

187_CB.jpg
 
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sam am I

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Just to add a little perspective here, I would submit that while no fusing is required in a starting circuit, there is nothing that prohibits it either.

Concur


The 100 Amp dual element time delay type fuse in the graph below would give a guy about 200 Sec's (3.3 mins) of continues cranking @ the typical 200 Amps before it popped. Plenty of time to melt the wires, smoke your starter and try to get started up BUT, would assume here, a typical person would only be cranking in say 5/10/20?/30? sec. shots max though, right? ("The starter motor may be damaged if operated continuously. DO NOT operate continuously for more than 30 seconds. Allow a 2 minute cooling period between starting attempts").

BUT, for example, in say that 1000 amp situation, the fuse graph shows it would pop but, only after about 2 secs. of 1000 continuous amps(that's about 50 times longer than that 40 ms pulsed 1000 amps of typical inrush seen in the crank cycle graph, that is way too fast and most likely won't blow this type of fuse according to the graph) With a hard @$$ short to ground though of perhaps 4000 amps(4x the inrush), it's opening up in .01 secs., or vaporizing it in .02 secs.

The crank cycle graph shows the typical motor is down to this 200 amps in about 400 ms.

But sure, A guy gets in the boat, hits the key, the boat doesn't start, the guy stays on the key(or stuck key switch/starter solenoid, whatever), continuously drawing 200 amps for more than 30 sec's. Say we're at the 2 minute mark and no one has reached for/found the batt off switch,(the ABYC guidelines recommends those, but they're not are "mandatory", the sheriff has never inspected mine because they're not required, just SMART/NICE to have!! Especially in a boat), panic ensues, the wife is yelling, kids are screaming, the dog bailed out and is swimming for shore and now smoke is rolling out of the starter and the wires are dripping off molten insulation from red hot copper all at the same time with this 100 amp fuse or not......

Wouldn't it though be nice and smart?(especially in a boat), that if the current went through the roof, say to that 1000 or 4000 amps or higher during the above "situation"(or out of the blue even) due to the wires being less their insulation now and perhaps shorted to one another and/or the starter winding's finally shorted out, having that 100 AMP fuse opening up right about now?

Or worst worst case, it stayed at 200 amps but, opening up by default/design at that 3 minutes point? I have had starter solenoids stick/weld closed on me more than once.

Maybe I'm too "progressive" but thinking this as purely a safety idea isn't too out of control w what some advancements are brings these days and showing in different apps. Especially if it's tested, proven reliable and underwritten by industry safety commissions and the like.



Delay Fuse.jpg
 
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MH Hawker

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

This is the more common way to wire it up.

1-2-Both.jpg

GW Wiring Diagrams 2.jpg
 
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gm280

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

Fuses and Circuit Breakers are not instantaneous in their protection abilities. Think of the inrush current in the typical home water heater that is circuit breakered at 40 or more amps per leg. The inrush current it well over that 40 amp circuit breaker limit but yet it doesn't blow. Because fuses and circuit breakers work on the heating of bimetal elements (for the most part) and it takes a few seconds to reach their opening points. For that reason boats can be fused to protect most any type circuit...period! And a lot of vehicles do have fusible links in their positive leads going to the vehicle, starter included. Check out their schematics and verify... So once again, knowing the resistance of your starter circuit you can fuse or circuit breaker the starter circuit quite easily... It is not rocket surgery folks...think!
 

bruceb58

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Re: Fuses needed or not?

I don't think its a good idea to put a fuse in the cable that goes to the starter. Too many safety issue if the fuse happens to blow, loosen up, corrode...especially if you happen to be in a dicey situation and you need the engine started NOW.

They are not required for a reason!
 
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