Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

The question is whether the recirculation pump has run long enough to displace all the seawater and replaced it with the antifreeze solution. By using a 1/2" or 5/8" garden hose to introduce the antifreeze, the rate is slowed. Running the engine at idle does not produce enough heat to be damaged by the reduced flow, and gives the process enough time for the recirculated fluid to be exchanged.

So, if I understand you correctly, Using your "process" , You DO NOT drain the block when winterizing an engine with the boat in the water.............................

That IS of course "The Question"............unless you remove the T-stat when doing this there's considerable risk.

You won't find very many people that believe you can safely winterize an engine this way (unless it's closed cooled.......then it works perfectly for the raw water "side"!!)

What you're doing is 'hoping' you have ran the engine long enough to get the the "mix" to a "safe-from-freezing" concentration everywhere in the block.

There are areas in the block that flow coolant at different rates.......It's not possible to know if every point has mixed properly unless you DO test a little.....and even then I don't think one could be sure.

If you can open up a block drain to test why can't you open block drains to "drain"?You'd only be draining a gallon or 2, the bilge pump would pump it right overboard and you could do your "thing" and KNOW for sure.........."testing" wouldn't be necessary.

A great guy once said: You have to click on the pic to see it well for some reason......


Please, anyone reading this thread, DO NOT winterize an engine like this without FIRST draining the block!



Cheers,


Rick

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

If you can open up a block drain to test why can't you open block drains to "drain"?You'd only be draining a gallon or 2, the bilge pump would pump it right overboard and you could do your "thing" and KNOW for sure.........."testing" wouldn't be necessary.

A great guy once said:View attachment 229807 You have to click on the pic to see it well for some reason......


Please, anyone reading this thread, DO NOT winterize an engine like this without FIRST draining the block!



Cheers,


Rick

In my situation, I'm working on boats with dual engine installations. The engines are mounted close to the hull on one side and typically have generators and other equipment in between. Access to one side of the block is difficult, but almost impossible to the other.

Your admonition to readers of this thread is rude and insulting. I'm sure that folks can decide for themselves if this mod would be beneficial in their particular circumstance. Your comment suggests that everyone who winterizes using muffs is making a huge mistake. Tell that to my neighbor who bought his beloved Cobalt nearly 30 years ago new, with a 5.0 and Alpha One. It sits year around on a lift, outside, under cover. Every fall, he introduces 4 gallons of antifreeze through the muffs without draining anything. Then it sits in the air that gets below zero here at times. 30 years without a problem. Because, like me, he takes the time to do it right.

 

[thumpar]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ricky have you read the forums? There are block cracked every year from the antifreeze method when not drained. There are already posts about it this year.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

In my situation, I'm working on boats with dual engine installations. The engines are mounted close to the hull on one side and typically have generators and other equipment in between. Access to one side of the block is difficult, but almost impossible to the other.

Your admonition to readers of this thread is rude and insulting. I'm sure that folks can decide for themselves if this mod would be beneficial in their particular circumstance. Your comment suggests that everyone who winterizes using muffs is making a huge mistake. Tell that to my neighbor who bought his beloved Cobalt nearly 30 years ago new, with a 5.0 and Alpha One. It sits year around on a lift, outside, under cover. Every fall, he introduces 4 gallons of antifreeze through the muffs without draining anything. Then it sits in the air that gets below zero here at times. 30 years without a problem. Because, like me, he takes the time to do it right.

Ayuh,.... Yer free to winterize any way ya want,....

Anybody that winterizes, Without Drainin' the motor 1st, is Lucky, if they don't end up with a cracked block,....

Even the Manufacturers Demand, that the motor is Drained 1st,....

What yer callin' rude and insulting, is protectin' members from themselves,....

There's more than enough Proof, every Spring here on the forums,....

 

[JustJason]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

You can lead a horse to water....

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

... and You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Your turn.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

What yer callin' rude and insulting, is protectin' members from themselves,....

There's more than enough Proof, every Spring here on the forums,....

Bondo, I will concede your points. If you read what I wrote earlier, you will recall that I drain my SeaRay, because I can. I use this method on a few houseboats because I cannot. Both are effective, if done correctly. Winterizing by flushing with an antifeeze solution can be verified by testing, from whatever drain points you need to test to give yourself peace of mind. Those tests will prove beyond any doubt if the flushing was effective. Luck has nothing to do with it.

You are correct that this may be beyond the capabilities of some who visit this site. To them, I suggest that they hire a seasoned Marine Mechanic such as yourself to do the job for them.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Bondo, I will concede your points. If you read what I wrote earlier, you will recall that I drain my SeaRay, because I can. I use this method on a few houseboats because I cannot. Both are effective, if done correctly. Winterizing by flushing with an antifeeze solution can be verified by testing, from whatever drain points you need to test to give yourself peace of mind. Those tests will prove beyond any doubt if the flushing was effective. Luck has nothing to do with it.

You are correct that this may be beyond the capabilities of some who visit this site. To them, I suggest that they hire a seasoned Marine Mechanic such as yourself to do the job for them.

Ayuh,... 'n My point is, if you can reach the drains to Test it,... You can reach the drains to Drain it 1st,....

Nuff said,...

 

[Watermann]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Reminds me of the first year I put in my underground sprinklers and with winter approaching they have to have the water exchanged for air in the line to keep from freezing. Guys use an old hose fitting to screw on a spigot with a QD air fitting to introduce the air. I decided to go from the supply side and install a ball valve with a male QD 3/8" air fitting on it to be sure nothing was left behind.

Seeing your thread, I started thinking about doing the same thing but introducing some air after I drain the block and manifolds. If that would keep me from having to remove the all hoses in order for me to feel better then it would be worth it. Of course then I would be worried all dang winter because I didn't take the hoses off even after blowing air through the motor for an hour. :lol:

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ricky have you read the forums? There are block cracked every year from the antifreeze method when not drained. There are already posts about it this year.

Yes, but did not read them all though. It's sad. The 4.3L that was cracked belonged to my neighbor's girlfriend. I don't know who winterized it, or how. She's looking at a $6k repair bill and deciding if she's even going to get the boat repaired. With the record cold this last winter, I'm sure that there will be an abnormally high number of boats damaged. From all the email ads I'm getting from parts sources offering new manifolds, I think they are seeing an increased demand as well

Antifreeze flushing is the ONLY way that can be tested to ensure that it is effective. You do this by sampling fluid from drain points and testing it with a TEXTON THX107 hydrometer which you can buy for about $20 or use a refractometer which can be purchased for about $150. Using the engines own system to circulate the antifreeze ensures that all of the cooling passages are protected, unlike static filling, so long as the engine is hot and the thermostat is fully open.

If you only gravity drain the engine, there is no way to verify that all of the water, from all the nooks and crannys, has been removed. On my SeaRay, I would leave the hoses and plugs out hoping that whatever was left might evaporate. Mercruiser does not recommend leaving the plugs out because "...the threads might rust." I could only hope I was lucky and got it all, but then the boat was in my garage so it never got really cold. I'll never know.

There are as many ways for winterization to fail as there are people doing the work, and boats to winterize. Older engines, especially those used in salt water, may have badly rusted cooling passages that would impede both the flushing and the draining methods. Then you have the moronic sea water pump design that allows chunks of impeller rubber from a failed impeller, to pass down stream and permanently block cooling passages. Neither draining nor flushing can provide 100% assurance to those. And we all know that impellers never fail...

You have to do what you are comfortable doing. Boating is all about peace of mind, relaxation, enjoyment. "Good enough" is whatever gives you that peace of mind - "Zen, and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" - Robert Pirsig

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

In my situation, I'm working on boats with dual engine installations. The engines are mounted close to the hull on one side and typically have generators and other equipment in between. Access to one side of the block is difficult, but almost impossible to the other.

Your admonition to readers of this thread is rude and insulting. I'm sure that folks can decide for themselves if this mod would be beneficial in their particular circumstance. Your comment suggests that everyone who winterizes using muffs is making a huge mistake. Tell that to my neighbor who bought his beloved Cobalt nearly 30 years ago new, with a 5.0 and Alpha One. It sits year around on a lift, outside, under cover. Every fall, he introduces 4 gallons of antifreeze through the muffs without draining anything. Then it sits in the air that gets below zero here at times. 30 years without a problem. Because, like me, he takes the time to do it right.

Howdy,


My disagreement with you is of course, not intended as an insult.

I am not criticizing your modification. I actually like it. It's exactly how I "winterize" my closed cooled Mercruiser 7.4/Bravo III package every year.

I am criticizing your procedure that includes NOT draining the block on any raw water cooled engine..

Suggesting that people do not need to drain the block on any raw water cooled engine when drawing any amount of AF in via the raw water pickup is irresponsible IMHO.

Draining a (raw water cooled) block works every time. Simply drawing an AF mix in via the raw water pickup or raw water line doesn't work(every time)

If you've gotten it to work, good for you.

Readers on this board need to know what works every time, and what doesn't work (everytime)

With all due respect, I stand by my suggestion to everyone else when winterizing their raw water cooled engines.

DRAIN THE BLOCK FIRST ,then pour in your favorite AF

Regards,


Rick

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Thank you for the apology. I accept. My complaint was with your method, not your message; writing in large, bold font is the equivalent of yelling in print, like using all caps. You communicated "Don't listen to this guy. He is wrong", even if that was not your intent.

You (and some of the other forum members who have chimed in) are of course correct that draining the engine adds insurance that the water inside won't freeze and cause damage. You are also correct that the manufacturers procedures call for draining, and the newer engines (FINALLY!) actually make this much easier by providing ample, easily identified and accessible drain plugs.

No one will ever go wrong draining first and filling second. I think one member remarked that he uses compressed air to blow out the passages as well, which is yet another layer of insurance. When the engine damage can exceed $6k, many layers of insurance is not a bad thing, if you're willing to pay the additional expense for the additional insurance.

We are all seeking the same end result; an engine that will not suffer freeze damage. I still submit that flushing with an antifreeze solution and then testing the results provides an easier, less expensive, quicker, and more assured result than draining alone and/or static filling. Why? Because it is impossible to test whether all the water is gone from all the nooks and crannys, but it is possible to test the antifreeze protection level from various drain points as thoroughly and often as needed to obtain peace of mind that the engine is protected, both from freezing and corrosion.

Within my published procedure, if one were to stop and take the time to open all the drains after the engine was shut down, it is likely that the engine could cool down enough for the thermostat to close. That would defeat the purpose and make the flushing ineffective.

I stand by my mod. Testing can provide 99% proof that the procedure has resulted in a protected engine. Some installations, and larger blocks will likely require more antifreeze mix than the 3 gals I suggest for the 4.3, 5.0 and 5.7. Testing eliminates any luck or hope in the equation and replaces it with solid assurance.

But again, you are not wrong. Nor is Bondo or any other member who drains as part of the winterization process. It's generally effective, and I use it myself on my SeaRay.

I would caution anyone who hears a story "I winterized using muffs, now my engine is cracked." to draw the conclusion that the fault is with the process. Was the impeller malfunctioning, was the thermostat open, are the cooling passages blocked (rust, scale, rubber chunks), was enough antifreeze used, was it flushed long enough, etc? Most importantly, was the result tested?

Four more runabouts with MC Alpha sterndrives that sit on lifts outside in the below zero winter that were flushed using muffs, were recommisioned yesterday here at my dock. All were simply flushed, not drained first, some by their owners. No issues. Luck? One owner has had 30 straight years of "luck", same boat, same process, same result.

I apologize for the long reply. I greatly value the opinions and advice shared by the members of this forum. I offered this gift freely as a meager attempt at payback.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

writing in large, bold font is the equivalent of yelling in print, like using all caps. You communicated "Don't listen to this guy. He is wrong",

I stand by my original recommendation.

ANY winterization of a raw water cooled engine that does NOT include draining raw water from the block FIRST is foolish and risky. (AND WRONG)

Now, if you want to suggest "muffing" an AF mix AFTER a complete block draining "to get the nook & cranny water", or reduce possible corrosion etc, it's probably not a bad idea.

But the block must be drained first. (period)

I don't know any other way to say it.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I don't know any other way to say it.

You repeat it =)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANY winterization of a raw water cooled engine that does NOT include draining raw water from the block FIRST is foolish and risky. (AND WRONG)

Now, if you want to suggest "muffing" an AF mix AFTER a complete block draining "to get the nook & cranny water", or reduce possible corrosion etc, it's probably not a bad idea.

But the block must be drained first. (period)

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


















:sleeping:

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:








:sleeping:

Yeah! + :deadhorse:

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ok guys. Here's why I think you are mistaken. If you drain and fill, per the manufacturers recommendations, it gives excellent results almost all of the time. It's costly, time consuming, and it can damage the hoses and plug threads and other components. But it works, nearly every time. And it generates lots of revenue for the professionals.

You cannot drain before flushing, unless you are SuperMechanic and work at the speed of light. Why? Because flushing is only effective if the thermostat is open. If you run the engine on sea water or a garden hose with muffs to heat it up to operating temperature, the time required to pull all the drain plugs, all the hoses, drain the engine and then reinstall all the plugs and all the hoses is enough time for the engine to cool down and the thermostat to close. Then when you introduce the flushing antifreeze solution, it all goes out the exhaust and the engine is NOT protected. If you drain and then flush, you will likely fail.

If you're going to drain, then follow the manufacturers procedure and remove the thermostat housing and perform a static fill of antifreeze as additional protection, or leave out the thermostat and reinstall it during recommissioning.

Nice cutsie pie icons, by the way. "If you can't win the argument, then ridicule your opponent". I thought this was a boat forum, not a left wing political blog... Be nice, and share your reasoning. Prove me wrong if you can. I welcome your attempt.

Flushing without draining, and then testing the results, provides absolute assurance that the engine and every passage is protected (provided the results show sufficient protection). Prove to me that is does not.

 

[thumpar]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I am no supermechanic and drain mine. I don't use AV but for those that do the engine does fill up on muffs. They fill from the bottom up not the top down. Even if they didn't get it full it wouldn't matter because it would just be air left over.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ok guys. Here's why I think you are mistaken. If you drain and fill, per the manufacturers recommendations, it gives excellent results almost all of the time. It's costly, time consuming, and it can damage the hoses and plug threads and other components. But it works, nearly every time. And it generates lots of revenue for the professionals.

You cannot drain before flushing, unless you are SuperMechanic and work at the speed of light. Why? Because flushing is only effective if the thermostat is open. If you run the engine on sea water or a garden hose with muffs to heat it up to operating temperature, the time required to pull all the drain plugs, all the hoses, drain the engine and then reinstall all the plugs and all the hoses is enough time for the engine to cool down and the thermostat to close. Then when you introduce the flushing antifreeze solution, it all goes out the exhaust and the engine is NOT protected. If you drain and then flush, you will likely fail.

If you're going to drain, then follow the manufacturers procedure and remove the thermostat housing and perform a static fill of antifreeze as additional protection, or leave out the thermostat and reinstall it during recommissioning.

Nice cutsie pie icons, by the way. "If you can't win the argument, then ridicule your opponent". I thought this was a boat forum, not a left wing political blog... Be nice, and share your reasoning. Prove me wrong if you can. I welcome your attempt.

Flushing without draining, and then testing the results, provides absolute assurance that the engine and every passage is protected (provided the results show sufficient protection). Prove to me that is does not.

Ayuh,.... Yer Wrong on that,....

If ya drain the block 1st, when ya start the motor, the block fills with water, before any exhausted water is expelled,...

That's why it takes sooooo long for my barge to discharge water outa the exhaust, at 1st spring start up,...
It's spent the last few months at sub-0 temps, Bone Dry,...

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ayuh,... 'n My point is, if you can reach the drains to Test it,... You can reach the drains to Drain it 1st,....

Nuff said,...

I'm satisfied with the one plug I can reach. No need to drain. The test said it's good. And that's not luck. That's professional skill, expertly applied, results guaranteed. Happy clients, dry bilge, cheap invoice, perfect results. Nuff said.