force 125 hesitation

P

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: force 125 hesitation

If they didn't break or strip the threads, probably no harm.
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

may I ask why? I have no problem doing it but may I ask what is the consequence?

in anycase I will have too remove them when I get my gaskets but here is another question?

the exhaust port plate( stainless steel plate) was relatively warpped due to heat. the gaskets they have them in stock but the plate will be in 2 weeks. im leaving for cape cod this weekend.

do I re use the old plate with new gaskets and then rechange the old plate?

or do nothing wait to install everything right?

but im pretty certain in getting water infiltration and its going to cylinder 4 that's why it seams always clean. will that harm my engine for 4 days of fishing.

what say u?

thanks
 
Last edited:
P

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: force 125 hesitation

After one season of running, the new plate will be just as warped as the old one. I've never seen a used one that was not warped. As long as it doesn't have a crack in it, just put the old one back on and run with it.

The original stainless plate is about .025" - .030" thick from what I can remember off the top of my head. I made one out of .055" thick stainless and even it has a slight warp.
 
J

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Re: force 125 hesitation

Overtorquing bolts places more than designed clamp load or tensile stress on the bolt to begin with. With heat and expansion, this load increases and the bolt could give and break or if the mating material (where it is bolted to) has a lower tensile strength could crack or strip to release the stress or load. Although the result of overtorquing is not initially apparent, the expansion and contraction caused by heat and cold will eventually result in either broken bolt or cracked mating surface, especially in heat prone area like the exhaust system.

If there is water intrusion in cylinder #4 and it continues to fire, it will constantly "steam clean" the cylinder resulting in low lubrication, overheating, broken rings, scored cylinder or even broken piston. In short, it will be a catastrophic damage. On the otherhand, if it does not fire at all but the engine continues to be ran on 3 cylinders, it will accumulate water resulting in rusting when the engine is turned off and put away for awhile. In turn, results in seizure of the piston to the cylinder this is especially true if you use it in seawater.
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

I am certain its firing and steam cleaning my system due to 3 things... correct me if im wrong...

when I change plugs from other cylinder and have a good tan color to them and when I install it to the #4 cylinder it become clean like I just bought the plug.

secondly when I change the plug immediately I get a small amount of steam coming out of the plug hole

third (not sure) but when I looked at the youtube video posted from pnwboat I see the power flow water come out in a constant slow stream. mine sputters thus my assumption is the exhaust is finding itself to push the water flow in spurts instead of constant flow. on the other hand my 1/8 pee hole is very constant with very good pressure.

can I had water filtration for a long time? the reason I ask its been at least for 2 years but not really running it for than30-40hours
 
Last edited:
J

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Re: force 125 hesitation

You are correct on your diagnosis there is water intrusion on #4 as indicated by the spark plug swap test. If after replacing the gasket on the exhaust plate and the problem persists, it is most likely the water intrusion is coming in from the head, either because of a warped head or improperly torque head bolts. I wonder if there is some kind of "bluing" that can be used on the cylinder top or side of the gasket mating with the cylinder to trace the leak? Have you taken a close look at the cylinder to see if there is any hairline crack?

As for being able to run it the way it is, I guess you can since you've done it in the last two years as you mentioned. Obviously, the motor is not running normally, but then of course it is you call.
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

well... im a contractor by day and problems on jobs site is just normal thus my tenacity... I believe there is just solutions not problems. Saying that now im found downing it. I replaced also head gasket, exhaust gaskets, reed gaskets, checked reeds, puddle valves gaskets and cleaning them, I have good compression 140 on all cylinders, I get 4900 rpms with BUHW plugs but 4400 with BUHX or champions equivalent.

I do have a question guys before I pull the plug on the transom and make my boat a structure for fish.

I have timed the engine as per youtube video. 28btdc and 30 wot. i have a prestolite blue packs but have read 32 is max. can the reason why im not firing at the right time thus having my last cylinder clean? it does seam that the combustion is progressive... meaning the top cylinder seams to have more carbon deposit and progressively get cleaner until reach to cylinder 4.

my other option is i did do a powerhead swap due to previous ceased piston. if i screwed up on the silicone seal between the head on motor leg can that cause water infiltration?

i inspected diligently for any cracks in and around the head from exhaust port and cylinder head and all looks good. but can a hairline crack still have good compression in all cylinders.
 
P

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: force 125 hesitation

I kind of have my doubts about a messed up silicone seal causing your problem. You would most likely see an exhaust leak rather than water intrusion.

In looking back at the original video, I think you more likely have an ignition system problem, rather than a water intrusion issue. Steam coming out of the spark plug hole is common. I see it often on my motor on various cylinders. More noticeable when the weather is cold. I recently did some tinkering with an extra cylinder head that I had milled by about .040". When I took the original head off, I noticed right away that the carbon deposits on the head gradually decreased from number 1 to number 4 cylinder. Number 4 cylinder had very little carbon on the combustion chamber. All four pistons looked identical as far as carbon. I suspect that the lower part of the head runs hotter, so less carbon deposits....maybe? I don't know. The lower part of the head is where the water exits the engine and gets dumped into the lower leg, so this is where the water temperature would be the hottest. I have to say though, all four of my spark plugs look pretty much the same.

It seems that you've covered all of the common causes for water intrusion. I don't know, maybe look at the ignition system. The Prestolite ignition system can sometimes be difficult to trouble-shoot for weak or intermittent spark. The Prestolite ignition system has some limitations especially at low speeds and the BUHX plugs are designed to maximize spark energy at low RPMs.
 
tater76

tater76

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
712
Re: force 125 hesitation

If you can in fact take a fouled plug and insert it in #4, and it comes out clean as a whistle, then yes it is getting water IMO. If you have replaced gaskets as you said, and it still leaks, then I would look at the head. If you reused the head from the motor that seized from running hot, it is VERY possible the head is warped.

You can take the head to a machine shop and have it checked and decked.
 
J

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Re: force 125 hesitation

I do not believe a 2 degree difference in timing at WOT will have any significant impact on the motor performance let alone misfiring on any cylinder. From the length of this thread, it seems we've covered just about anything mechanical that can cause a misfire on #4 cylinder and except for the spark plugs, we have yet to tackle the electrical or ignition system. As for the water intrusion, we would just have to put that aside for now since you've inspected both the head and exhaust plate to be in good conditions.

You mentioned you swapped powerheads before that means you have an entire spare of CDM's and coils? is that correct? Have you tried swapping CDM's to see if the misfire goes away? Coils?
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

tater76 said:
If you can in fact take a fouled plug and insert it in #4, and it comes out clean as a whistle, then yes it is getting water IMO. If you have replaced gaskets as you said, and it still leaks, then I would look at the head. If you reused the head from the motor that seized from running hot, it is VERY possible the head is warped.

You can take the head to a machine shop and have it checked and decked.
Click to expand...
nope it is another head I just used the extra long leg due to my transom.
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

Jiggz said:
I do not believe a 2 degree difference in timing at WOT will have any significant impact on the motor performance let alone misfiring on any cylinder. From the length of this thread, it seems we've covered just about anything mechanical that can cause a misfire on #4 cylinder and except for the spark plugs, we have yet to tackle the electrical or ignition system. As for the water intrusion, we would just have to put that aside for now since you've inspected both the head and exhaust plate to be in good conditions.

You mentioned you swapped powerheads before that means you have an entire spare of CDM's and coils? is that correct? Have you tried swapping CDM's to see if the misfire goes away? Coils?
Click to expand...

yes I do have entire spare cdm's and coil's but they are the black model. now I have the blue ones.

you are right in regards of letting go the water issue.

I have a question in regards of the stator... does it make a difference were the wires connect together? meaning there is 2 blue and 2 yellow. 2 longer ones and 2 closer...
 
P

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: force 125 hesitation

I have a question in regards of the stator... does it make a difference were the wires connect together? meaning there is 2 blue and 2 yellow. 2 longer ones and 2 closer...
Click to expand...

I don't think it makes a difference, as long as you have a Blue and a Yellow stator wire feeding one CD Module, and the other Blue and Yellow wire feeding the other CD Module. The stator puts out AC voltage, so there is no polarity.

Having said that, to be 100% sure, measure the resistance ( stator wires disconnected) between the one combination of Blue and Yellow stator wires, then the other. If there is no difference or less than 5% variation in the readings (680-850 OHMs is the normal range), then it probably won't matter. If you do find that one combination shows a difference of more than 5%, then try the other combination to see if that gets you closer together.

Check those trigger spade lug connections too. Looks like you've replaced the ends, however, double check them to be sure. Those wires are really thin and not many strands in each wire. Make sure all the strands are intact and you don't have one hanging in there with just one strand.
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

pnwboat said:
I don't think it makes a difference, as long as you have a Blue and a Yellow stator wire feeding one CD Module, and the other Blue and Yellow wire feeding the other CD Module. The stator puts out AC voltage, so there is no polarity.

Having said that, to be 100% sure, measure the resistance ( stator wires disconnected) between the one combination of Blue and Yellow stator wires, then the other. If there is no difference or less than 5% variation in the readings (680-850 OHMs is the normal range), then it probably won't matter. If you do find that one combination shows a difference of more than 5%, then try the other combination to see if that gets you closer together.

Check those trigger spade lug connections too. Looks like you've replaced the ends, however, double check them to be sure. Those wires are really thin and not many strands in each wire. Make sure all the strands are intact and you don't have one hanging in there with just one strand.
Click to expand...

im getting on one set 615 and the other 725
im more like 15% difference.... can that be my intermitted problem? can that cause #4 not firing?
 
P

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: force 125 hesitation

The one winding that reads 615 is below specs by almost 10%. Do you have access to a DVA to read the stator output voltage while the motor is running?
 
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

no I do not but I built one but not 100% if it works... ive read there is a way with reading ac setting and multiply?

I also went to outboardignition web and there is a spec section that says 500-800 high and low

what does that mean high and low?

More importantly I might have not install the stator correctly... it seams the stator needs to positions in a certain way for it operate properly... is thiker windings go infront or in the back?
 
Last edited:
J

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Re: force 125 hesitation

Since this is a comparison reading of the stator output voltage, you can take AC readings from each set of wires even without a DVA adapter. Unlike the coils and CDM's which put out "spike" output (high transient) that an ordinary DVM cannot measure, the stator has steady AC output and can be measured with a regular multimeter. As with the ohm readings, expect the output voltage to be also within 5% of each other. Specs output voltage is supposed to be 180V+, peak. Since you are using a regular DVM that measures in RMS, you can compute the peak output by multiplying it with the 1.4142

As for the CDM, either black or blue has very little difference in wiring connections. I've seen motors with both CDM's installed and works perfectly.
 
Last edited:
fisheymikey

fisheymikey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
450
Re: force 125 hesitation

while engine running I put 2 different dva meters and im getting nothing stable... actually the dva's go crazy and don't get any reading they spike up down.

I have a auto and a manual dva.. between witch lead do I touch

Does the engine needs to be running? I tried it during running


thx
 
Last edited:
J

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Actually, either the engine is running or simply cranking you should at least read 180V+ between each set of blue and yellow wires. Just make sure you get the proper set, first read resistance between each set of blue and yellow wires and should get proper resistance as mentioned before. Just use the regular DVM to take voltage readings for now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top