force 125 hesitation

fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

what is a resistor plug? BUHX or BUHW im guessing BUHW?
 

pnwboat

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Re: force 125 hesitation

The BUHX plugs that are specified to be used on the Prestolite ignition system, which is what fisheymikey has, are a boost gap plug and do not have a resister plug equivalent. If you take an OHM meter and measure the resistance from the spark plug wire connection to the tip of the center electrode, it will read OPEN. No conductivity. There is an actual gap in the electrode inside the plug itself. The external gap on the BUHX plugs are about .025". The BUHW plugs are used on the later Mercury style Thunder Bolt ignition systems. They do not have an internal gap in the electrode. The external gap on the BUHW plugs is about .045". The resistor equivalent of the BUHW is a BUZHW.

Below is a picture of the BUHW plug on the left and a BUHX plug on the right. Notice the difference in the spark plug gap from the center electrode to the outer case.
IMG_1342.JPG


The BUHX and BUHW plugs are designed to be used for different types of ignition systems. I've experimented and used the BUHW plugs in a Prestolite ignition system. They did not perform as well as the BUHX.
 

fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

here are some pics as per Jiggs request...

I tried both plugs off and plugs in without the one testing.

one pic is the plugs after use about 1 hour on the water

other is the "the wet test" exept for cylinder 4 it had a very little fuel the others were bone dry.

IMG_1626.JPG

IMG_1624.JPG

also notice the far right plug is cleaner... its also the same plug that there was a bit a fuel.

can that be the reeds? I did read a bit about reed valve failure I do have most of the symptoms..

I have a sudden burst of acceleration at 4500 and jumps to 4800
rough idle speed
lack of power

the only symptom I don't have my engine starts relatively easy

just realized I did not read Jiggs post well due to my dyslexia...

I did not have the napkins 2 inches away from the cylinder I had it directly on the spark plug hole
 
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tater76

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Re: force 125 hesitation

Sounds pretty normal, when was the last time you put a new diaphragm in the fuel pump? I have NEVER seen a physical reed failure on a Force motor. That is.... I have not seen a physical defect/damage, yet I have seen stuck reeds from varnished fuel.

If you have not already, do a compression check, check spark with a tester, and confirm fuel delivery.
 

Jiggz

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Re: force 125 hesitation

The "wet test" is unsatisfactory. You need to let the air-fuel mixture to blow out of the hole and catch it with the napkin so as to see if there is always fresh air-fuel mixture going into the cylinder. If you plug the napkin into the hole the air-fuel mix will not blow out of the plug hole thus you will not see any wetting. Even better is to hold the carb throttle bar link wide open so you can see more fuel. This is the theory behind this test.

First unlike in 4-cycle engine where air-fuel mix directly enters the cylinders, 2 cycle engine pre-staged it first in the crankshaft area. On the piston's downstroke, the mix is compressed with the help of the reeds which acts like a check valve. As soon as the piston crown clears the intake ports, the compressed mix rushes into the cylinder. The fresh mix pushes the exhaust from the previous combustion while at the same time providing fresh mix for the next cycle.

However, if the reed valve is malfunctioning, on the piston's downstroke most of the fresh mix that entered the crankcase will be pushed out again to the carb. And when the piston clears the intake ports, very little of the fresh mix will enter the cylinder to clear the exhaust, hence no combustion takes place especially in idle or low speed where little fuel gets into the mixture (air-fuel). In the "wet test" you are trying to identify if there is always a a good amount of fresh mix introduced into the cylinder. If there is, then there should be wetting in the napkin held in front of the hole. Again, it is a must the plug hole is open and basically just catching the mix as it escapes the plug hole with the napkin.

The looks on #4 spark plug as you mentioned is too clean to indicate combustion is taking place in that cylinder, especially after one hour of running.

Here's a thread that took a lot of diagnosing and eventually concluded with a broken reed.
Good Spark No Fire
 
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fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

well I have disassemble the reed valves. its the 5 pedals model.

done were cracked or broken but the were slightly bent. I put a light underneath the reed and saw a few were bent more then others.

I read also on another site flip the reed if not broken and effectively the light dissipated significantly. before I could see clearly the opening now there is not even a hairline.

reusing them is a concern?
 

pnwboat

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Re: force 125 hesitation

If it's the 5 petal with rounded ends, factory specs are .010" gap or less. They should be fine. You should use some loctite or lock washers on the screws that hold the petals in place.
 

Jiggz

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Re: force 125 hesitation

Flipping them is a concern for others but not for me. Go forth and re-use them and re-install and do another test run and see if it solves your problem. Goodluck!
 

fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

thanks guys for all the help...

well I am glad that I removed the reed valves and flipped them I might get a bit a performance but I think the problem is still there. the gaskets on the valve reeds were swollen 5 times fold and very "gunky".

for my #4 cylinder plug to be clean im pretty sure now its the exhaust gasket or the sealer between the leg and the engine. now that im waiting for the gaskets and extra reeds im going to go ahead and remove the block.

im also going forward because the carbs and the reeds are apart thus making it easier removing the block. any advice in regards of removing the block. should I still remove the shaft and leg before removing the block?

leaving in 9 days for cape cod im pretty courageous taking on this project but the #4 cylinder being always clean getting me nervous. I really believe im getting water filtration threw the gasket thus the clean plug. I was really hoping it was the pedals but after what I saw im not convinced.
 

pnwboat

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Re: force 125 hesitation

If you think you're getting water intrusion on #4, it's usually the head gasket or exhaust cover gasket. Neither requires removal of the block to repair.
 

tater76

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Re: force 125 hesitation

WOW! that escalated quickly!! LOL!! Now your pulling the powerhead??

Seriously though, Jiggs nailed this in the first few posts. Check compression and SPARK! If you have not done this already, you are wasting time and money throwing gaskets in it.

As per Jiggs:

"As for your worries on the bottom cylinder, do a compression test on that said cylinder and that should clear your worries away. A clean spark plug is an indication it is not firing or could be firing but not attaining combustion. Again to put your doubts away, get a spare plug, ground it and watch its sparks and make sure it is consistent"

When diagnosing any 2 stroke, the cardinal rule is you must check the following:

1. COMPRESSION
2. SPARK
3. FUEL DELIVERY

A clean, wet with fuel #4 plug = no spark on #4
A clean, wet with water and fuel = bad gasket/gaskets
 

pnwboat

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Re: force 125 hesitation

Tater and Jiggz are correct in their suggestions. Especially compression and spark.

Can't open the links that you posted, however, I'm familiar with the diagram. It's neither item#50 or #60. It's item #96. Exhaust cover gaskets. You need two of them.
 

Jiggz

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Re: force 125 hesitation

I highly recommend you verify sparks on #4 by doing what was suggested by using a spare plug. Make sure you not only get spark but also a constant one and NOT INTERMITTENT. If you do get a constant spark, then it is time to escalate but only if you are positive compression is good. I do not believe the source of the intermittent misfiring is from the carbs as there is only one carb servicing the two lower cylinders and yet you get constant combustion on #3 cylinder as indicated by the plugs. However, if you do not get constant spark, check all the ignition wiring on #4 not just visually but also including those taped and shrank tube ones by bending them and mildly stressing them apart to see if there is loose connections.
 

fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

well here is the tear down of the exhaust gasket

IMG_1631.jpg
IMG_1632.jpgIMG_1633.jpg

after a good visual. I had a lot of carbon deposit on cylinder. but the gasket is still intact the plate is a bit warped...

would the tear be obvious in regards of the gasket?

in regards of the comments before.

good compression on all cylinders and a constant spark on all 4 plugs.

I did change head gasket and retorqued.
 

Jiggz

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Re: force 125 hesitation

I'm not sure if it's just me but it seems #4 cylinder seems to look a little cleaner than the rest. Could this be because it is not firing lately? The carbon build up doesn't look serious enough to cause engine malfunction unless there is water leaking into the cylinder. For now just do a thorough inspection by comparing cylinders. And hopefully after you put it back together it will run perfectly.
 

tater76

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Re: force 125 hesitation

Visually it looks pretty normal. Why did you change the headgasket in the first place? and how did you test spark? with an inline tester? or by grounding the plug out to the engine case? The gasket failure would be visible.
 

fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

I tested outside grounded. all spark plugs have the exact same spark.

cant find the tourque specs for the exhaust cover bolts
 
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pnwboat

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Re: force 125 hesitation

70 inch pounds on the exhaust cover bolts. That's 5.8 foot pounds.
 

fisheymikey

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Re: force 125 hesitation

now I feel stupid! I over torqued
150inchpound u think I cause harm?
 
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