Flooring material Question.

[legacycycles]

Re: Flooring material Question.

The factory flooring that you are replacing was encapsulated by glass/resin.....Key here is that you are 'replacing' it, because it is rotten.



Based on what I see, NON encapsulated wood used on Pontoon decking, lasts longer than the glass boat decking that is encapsulated with glass and resin.

And the pontoon deck is constantly exposed to water.

Go figure,huh.

 

[LonLB]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Go figure,huh.

Yep...

I won't be glassing my floors when I do them this winter/spring.

 

[tagggg]

Re: Flooring material Question.

After reading much information, I come to be a bit lost. I allow myself a few questions

1 - What are the advantages of using epoxy or poly-resin?
2 - How many gallon that i need for a 18-foot boat floor and my transom?

thank you

 

[legacycycles]

Re: Flooring material Question.

After reading much information, I come to be a bit lost. I allow myself a few questions

1 - What are the advantages of using epoxy or poly-resin?
2 - How many gallon that i need for a 18-foot boat floor and my transom?

thank you

Epoxy is the newer "better" version. It cost a bit more but does have some advantages. Check out west systems site or do some searching there is alot of info around on the subject.
As for coverage i cant really answer that one as i dont know.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Gee, I have repaired and replaced a few floors, however, I am not a professional. I have never seen PT Plywood absorb large amounts of poly or epoxy resin. I want it to absorb some resin to assure the bond is strong, however. I also screw the plywood to the stringers and bond it to the foam with cloth or just resin, prior to the cloth and resin on the top of the plywood.

PT plywood is rough, and would need to be faired/sanded/painted to make it presentable w/o some other cover. All of the floors I have done were covered by carpet or vinyl, so that step was unnecessary.

If you have a conventional boat where the bottom of the plywood is sealed to the foam and stringers, encapsulate it for pete's sake. otherwise it will absorb water, provide the water to the foam, water log the boat and then rot out. I would think the unsealed decks in pontoon boats have the chance to dry from both sides, and even if they get wet, cannot waterlog anything else.

 

[sschefer]

Re: Flooring material Question.

A couple of things come to mind with decking choices.

1. Is the wood from a reputable lumber manufacturer that uses good stock to build their ply. This is important because if the fungi that cause dry rot are in the wood at the mill they will be in the ply that you get.

2. Is the wood of a quality that will withstand the stresses of the marine environment.

Marine grade ply certainly meets both of those requirements. But so does Exterior grade ply with the exception of stress. If you encapsulate your Exterior Fir Plywood (not Pine) in a resin with glass reinforcement, it should meet the stress requirement.

So now, calculate the cost of a sheet of Marine grade plywood with roughly a gallon of one part Polyurethane and compare it to the cost of Exterior grade with resin, glass and labor.

When I did my Tinny deck I used 3/4" Exterior and 2 heavy coats of Polyurethane. I couldn't honestly tell you that this is the way to go because I will never know how long they'll last, that's the new owners problem. The boat is very dry inside and the bilge is vented and has blowers. If he takes care of it, I predict that they will out last his interest in the boat.

There is a third question to ask yourself... Are you really going to keep this thing forever? Come on, it's a boat. The happiest day's of your life are when you buy it and sell it.

FYI, I've argued this point in about 100 different threads on iBoats and this is what I've finally boiled it down to... Common sense...

 

[legacycycles]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Im no postion to argue or even debate as i have never done a floor replacement,hence the reason for this thread. However i do take all options into consideration and do appreciate all ideas. In the end i will make a decision based on what i seen when i get the cap off and the deck/floor out of the boat. But Back to my original thought process, why spend 3 times the money if the wood in question is going to be sealed with glass and resin then coverd in carpet.
I to think absorbstion(?) of resin would be a good thing. Seems to me the more resin in the wood equates to a lesser chance of water penetration,which we all know equals ROT. I am not a professional either,im just a jack of all trades master of 1.

 

[legacycycles]

Re: Flooring material Question.

A couple of things come to mind with decking choices.

1. Is the wood from a reputable lumber manufacturer that uses good stock to build their ply. This is important because if the fungi that cause dry rot are in the wood at the mill they will be in the ply that you get.

2. Is the wood of a quality that will withstand the stresses of the marine environment.

Marine grade ply certainly meets both of those requirements. But so does Exterior grade ply with the exception of stress. If you encapsulate your Exterior Fir Plywood (not Pine) in a resin with glass reinforcement, it should meet the stress requirement.

So now, calculate the cost of a sheet of Marine grade plywood with roughly a gallon of one part Polyurethane and compare it to the cost of Exterior grade with resin, glass and labor.

When I did my Tinny deck I used 3/4" Exterior and 2 heavy coats of Polyurethane. I couldn't honestly tell you that this is the way to go because I will never know how long they'll last, that's the new owners problem. The boat is very dry inside and the bilge is vented and has blowers. If he takes care of it, I predict that they will out last his interest in the boat.

There is a third question to ask yourself... Are you really going to keep this thing forever? Come on, it's a boat. The happiest day's of your life are when you buy it and sell it.

FYI, I've argued this point in about 100 different threads on iBoats and this is what I've finally boiled it down to... Common sense...

All great points. What is forever anyway?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Im no postion to argue or even debate as i have never done a floor replacement,hence the reason for this thread. However i do take all options into consideration and do appreciate all ideas. In the end i will make a decision based on what i seen when i get the cap off and the deck/floor out of the boat. But Back to my original thought process, why spend 3 times the money if the wood in question is going to be sealed with glass and resin then coverd in carpet.
I to think absorbstion(?) of resin would be a good thing. Seems to me the more resin in the wood equates to a lesser chance of water penetration,which we all know equals ROT. I am not a professional either,im just a jack of all trades master of 1.

The reason for the wood is for you to be able to stand on while having fun with your boat ( and some structural intergrity ).

The reason for the Glass over the wood is to keep its integrity/Longevity in tact.

As long as the Glass is Properly adheard to ply..then you Should be fine ( and the one who eventually might buy the boat off you Should Know about your Redecking..how, what, and when .. IMO ).

The Main reason to buy the good stuff is not only for the nature of the ply itself..but compatability for resin and glass to make a good bond.

Rot .. aye.. but there is Another reason some of us use Primo ply..and thats ease of use. Its more difficult to do a proper glass adheasion on regular ply ( Air trapped in the glass that cant be worked out unless you prep the wood with enough resin ). Time IS Money.

IF the ply is not ready to apply the glass..you can get delam..then moisture sets in..then a bigger bubble of glass starts to lift off your deck ( glass to ply starts to pop ).

Now..my experience..the better ply "takes" the glass and resin much better then the other ply's. Therefore making a better/quicker bond for the glass ( less resin less time ).

Bottom line is gettin that glass on as if your doing a fiberglass repair.. NO Air bubbles.

Another thing is resale value. If you document your redeck/repairs .. showing the prospect that you used Quality materials IMO gives you an advantage on the sale.

For some..CDX is fine..for others MG is a better option. There is no cut and dry for All boat owners on how and what they should use to get there end result. Its just my opinion to buy the product that is Safe for you..your family..and the other family that might buy the thing in the future.

No doubt doing things right with Fiberglass/wood/paint and anything else related to a boat IS HARD... But NOT doing it right is most of the time Harder..

YD.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Hey LC

I still think you should look into HDO...

Marine-grade plywood is made entirely of Douglas-fir or Western Larch. The grade of all plies of veneer is B or better. B-grade veneer may have knots but no knotholes. A-grade veneer has no knots or knotholes. Both A and B grade may contain wood or synthetic patches. Panels are sanded on both faces or Medium Density Overlay (MDO) or High Density Overlay (HDO). The maximum core-gap size permitted is 1/8 inch. Its exposure durability rating is EXTERIOR and the glue used is a fully waterproof structural adhesive. It is considered a "premium" panel grade for use in situations where these characteristics are required. It is available in 4x8-foot sheets of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4-inch thickness. Sheets up to 5x12-feet are also available. Available grades are A-A, A-B, B-B (face-back), MDO and HDO.

Marine-grade plywood is not treated with any chemicals to enhance its resistance to decay. If decay is a concern, it should be pressure-preservative treated to an appropriate standard.

The detailed description of veneer grades and Marine-grade plywood is contained in Voluntary Product Standard PS 1-95 Construction And Industrial Plywood.
Source(s):

The Engineered Wood Association

7011 South 19th Street . P.O. Box 11700 . Tacoma, WA 98411-0700
Telephone (253) 565-6600 . Fax Number (253) 565-7265

Minimum Resin absorbsion required due to its contruction, takes 1708 like a dream and 100% Waterproof Glue construction. You can even order it with Anti-Decay chemicals added.


I'm just sayin...

 

[BillP]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Firstly, we are talking old glass boat projects with sweat equity labor "costs". Material selection and labor shouldn't be confused with what the aforementioned "pros" do on boat projects (but one may want to ask the "pros" why they are touting to use the "best" when they aren't using pt marine and epoxy instead of non-treated marine and poly). Exterior ply will work on 99% of all the project boats done here (transoms, decks, stringers, cores) and the difference in life and durablity won't be seen except in the pocket book.

I have to respectfully disagree with the thought process that says exterior or el cheapo ply sucks more resin up and takes more time prepping than marine. The difference is so small it's a non issue. In some situations you may need to deal with a void (in the old days we cut it out and filled with resorcinal glue thickened with sawdust) but the quality of ply today is superior to yrs gone by (I've been cutting the stuff since the late 1960s). The differences between marine and exterior are almost a non issue unless max strength is needed. Marine is the strongest and has the edge (not huge)if constructing for the lightest structure is the desire. This need doesn't exist in most backyard project boats where most boat structures are originally built past the minimum and substituting the lessor strength exterior is no sacrifice in durability. Otherwise the labor difference is little to zero between marine and exterior when doing prep and glasswork. I'm looking back at my ply projects to dredge opinion on.

With that said, I've cut up at least 150-200 sheets of marine, AB & AC exterior plus a few dozen pt cdx sheets. 95% of them were used on boat projects with poly or epoxy. I sheathed (AB ext & epoxy) two sailboats (32' & 42') and done dozens of transoms, interiors, floors, stringers and decks in new mfg and old boats. I built 2 ply skiffs (10' & 14') in the 1960s with ab exterior and used only paint...no glass. They died after 15 yrs from my own neglect of not keeping them painted, stored properly and letting them sit unattended for yrs at a time...rot and termites happened to both. Back then many small shops used exterior too. From the 1950s into the 1970s many, if not most, small glass boat mfgs used exterior for decks and transoms...I've cut plenty of old boats up and worked in the trade (long ago) enough to learn fact from fiction. It makes me reluctant to believe marine outlives exterior in the real world. So yes, if you are basing your material selection only on material specifications but ignoring the engineering part of the material application then marine is the "best" plywood grade...and epoxy kicks poly to the curb too (which is what the hard core pros use over poly everytime). But most of us know poly works fine for both new boat mfg and home projects while epoxy is used for other reasons (superior tenacity, superior gluing, superior waterproofing, superior strength). If building using engineering standards to suit the application there are several choices available.

bp

It's my money and I want it now!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Hey LC

I still think you should look into HDO...

Marine-grade plywood is made entirely of Douglas-fir or Western Larch.

Never heard of MG mohogany ply ? ..thats not DF or WL ..

I have use the MDO .. for signs....works good for weather..

Thing that scares me about this stuff is the paper backing..yea my resin will adhear to the backing.

MDO IMO is not for boats..unless you want to give me a link were I can ask them myself...or a link that states that the MDO or whatever is good for trans or decks in a Marine envriroment.. Please...Im allways up to upgrading my materials..

YD.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Flooring material Question.

I provide the link everytime I post

http://www.pacificwoodlaminates.com/...ywoodGuide.pdf

Here is the excerpt from it

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Flooring material Question.

I cant reach the link...

YD.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Try this one

http://www.pacificwoodlaminates.com/img/PDFs/PlywoodGuide.pdf

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Flooring material Question.

BillP, Thank you for the precise, concise, common sense approach, based upon your experience. It naturally agrees with my opinion...

Do you want to tell them Luan and Mahogany have natural oils that repel resin?

 

[legacycycles]

Re: Flooring material Question.

Im out im just you 2 go at it. I think you both have valid points and do appreaciate both of your ideas.