Float planes and right of way

[oldjeep]

Re: Float planes and right of way

Its pretty obvious when they are taking off and landing, never heard a quiet one - common sense says to get the heck out of the way.

 

[Pez Vela]

Re: Float planes and right of way

I would assume there is some sort of federal regulation defining the right of way with Float Planes, but does anyone know if these laws tend to be specific to the geography or is it a blanket law?

Rule 18 of the NAVIGATION RULES (both International and Inland) provides for the "Responsibility Between Vessels." Seaplanes have the lowest priority, all other things being equal. However, since circumstances on the water are rarely "equal," it is incumbent on pilots (as well as boaters) to be familiar with ALL navigation rules, International or Inland, as the case may be. With boaters zipping all over a lake, it is probably just going to come down to Rule 2 (the "General Prudential Rule"), which requires pilots and boaters alike to avoid immediate danger and ignore all other navigation rules if that is necessary to avoid a collision.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Float planes and right of way

I'm pretty ignorant about float planes but we have a ton on my lake near the Canadian border. Sometimes the planes buzz the water to alert boaters but I was also told that on calm days they actually buzz the lake to stir up some waves to make the water easier to see. I have zero clue if that's true so hopefully someone here can clarify.

There's no correlation between flying low over the water and stirring up the water. The effect of flying low would have about as much effect on a large body of water as you would blowing across a swimming pool. As a matter of fact, landing on glass smooth water is as desirable to a seaplane pilot as skiing on glass smooth water is, lol. Now on takeoff, it is sometimes desirable to have a little bit of chop to break the floats loose from the water so as to get "on the step" of the floats and get to takeoff/rotation speed more quickly. Remember that the aircraft will almost always takeoff/land into the prevailing wind provided there aren't geographic constraints forcing a different direction.

Also, you'd be surprised how quiet a 172 is on landing, as the engine is usually at idle and wings don't make much noise when gliding, lol. It could take a boater by surprise if they had their own engine running at the time. Case in point: the story I mentioned in my earlier post. I was already running around 15-20mph when I saw the aircraft come over my left shoulder on its takeoff run. I never heard the aircraft at full throttle because I had a 2-stroke outboard behind me, lol.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: Float planes and right of way

I'm an airline pilot and have been flying small planes my whole life. While I have never flown a float plane, I know many who have. Landing on glass is not desirable because, believe it or not, you can't tell exactly how high you are off the water. For landing on "glass", they have a special procedure. Landing on a slight chop is actually easier. And no, a low pass will not "stir" up the water.

It could be very difficult to hear a landing plane. If you were hanging out, engine off, radio off, and we're involved in a conversation, you'd be able to hear a landing single engine airplane. Take off would be obvious. But wind noise while underway (in your boat), at even a fairly low speed will drown out any noise from a landing plane, and you wouldn't hear the noise from take off until it's too late. Just keep your eyes open at all times if you know sea planes are in the area.

As a pilot, we are always at fault, even if we aren't. Let's just say the rules say a boat and a plane come together, and the boat was technically at fault, the pilot would still be in trouble for putting the plane in that situation.

Not a float plane, but damn cool. Gives you a really good idea of how quiet they are, and he wasn't even at idle until a second before he touched down.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgIaMNi8UI


Same thing for this guy. Chopped the power just before he touched down. (someone needs to take this guys zoom button away)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJ4cPhVhFg

 

[Alumarine]

Re: Float planes and right of way

Its pretty obvious when they are taking off and landing, never heard a quiet one - common sense says to get the heck out of the way.

Actually they are pretty quiet on landing as they have the throttle(s) cut back, so it's easy for them to sneak up on you.

 

[Alumarine]

Re: Float planes and right of way

There's no correlation between flying low over the water and stirring up the water. The effect of flying low would have about as much effect on a large body of water as you would blowing across a swimming pool. As a matter of fact, landing on glass smooth water is as desirable to a seaplane pilot as skiing on glass smooth water is, lol..

Sorry, float planes do not like to land on smooth water. They prefer a bit of chop as depth perception is a problem with smooth water.
If it's smooth the pilot will often use a shoreline or treeline to the left or right to gauge distance to the water to avoid hard landings or worse.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Float planes and right of way

Actually they are pretty quiet on landing as they have the throttle(s) cut back, so it's easy for them to sneak up on you.

The guy on the lake we use must have some special loud pipes then. I can hear him circling and coming in even with the boat under power.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: Float planes and right of way

The guy on the lake we use must have some special loud pipes then. I can hear him circling and coming in even with the boat under power.

It's rare that a plane has anything other than straight pipes.

 

[four winns 214]

Re: Float planes and right of way

It's rare that a plane has anything other than straight pipes.

I've flown many different single and twin-engine airplanes from most of the U.S. manufacturers- Cessna, Piper, Beech, Mooney. All of them had mufflers.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Float planes and right of way

I've flown many different single and twin-engine airplanes from most of the U.S. manufacturers- Cessna, Piper, Beech, Mooney. All of them had mufflers.

Agreed, they have mufflers. It just looks like a straight pipe because the tip is underneath the engine cowl only hanging out a few inches.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Float planes and right of way

Sorry, float planes do not like to land on smooth water. They prefer a bit of chop as depth perception is a problem with smooth water.
If it's smooth the pilot will often use a shoreline or treeline to the left or right to gauge distance to the water to avoid hard landings or worse.

I'm not sure that they "do not like" to land on smooth water so much as it creates more of a complication in the judgement of the landing height/flare. That doesn't make landing on glass un-enjoyable. Hell, many of the seaplane bases exist on rivers that stay pretty flat, but that doesn't seem to bother the seaplanes too much. I do not posses the sea-rating, either, but have flown right-seat a time or two in them, left-seat for the ones with wheels, lol.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: Float planes and right of way

I'm not sure that they "do not like" to land on smooth water so much as it creates more of a complication in the judgement of the landing height/flare. That doesn't make landing on glass un-enjoyable. Hell, many of the seaplane bases exist on rivers that stay pretty flat, but that doesn't seem to bother the seaplanes too much. I do not posses the sea-rating, either, but have flown right-seat a time or two in them, left-seat for the ones with wheels, lol.

Landing in strong cross winds is not ideal, but doesn't mean it's not enjoyable.

Landing on glass in not ideal, doesn't mean they can't/won't/or dread doing it.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: Float planes and right of way

I've flown many different single and twin-engine airplanes from most of the U.S. manufacturers- Cessna, Piper, Beech, Mooney. All of them had mufflers.

You sure about that? The collector/cabin heat can look like a muffler, but it really isn't. I guess any collector does have a slight muffling effect, but that's not it's purpose.

Mufflers add weight and reduce power, both very important for airplanes. Not saying they don't exist, because I know they do, but most don't have mufflers. The propeller is what causes most of the noise anyway.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Float planes and right of way

You sure about that? The collector/cabin heat can look like a muffler, but it really isn't. I guess any collector does have a slight muffling effect, but that's not it's purpose.

Mufflers add weight and reduce power, both very important for airplanes. Not saying they don't exist, because I know they do, but most don't have mufflers. The propeller is what causes most of the noise anyway.

Partner, you need to take a break from flying the big iron and spend some time back in the bug-smashers, lol. They DO have mufflers, which is little more than a light baffling system. That muffler is incorporated with the cockpit heating system as well.

Not disagreeing about the fan making the majority of the noise.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Float planes and right of way

Landing in strong cross winds is not ideal, but doesn't mean it's not enjoyable.

Landing on glass in not ideal, doesn't mean they can't/won't/or dread doing it.

So basically, we're debating the preferences of a seaplane pilot on glass water? I'm not sure how it pertains to the subject of seaplanes and boats sharing the water. If a seaplane intends to land on the water, the condition of the water surface is of little consequence to a vessel nearby. I'm not sure they like to land into heavy chop conditions either, but it's been done. I'm just not sure what the point is you are trying to make?

 

[Steve91T]

Re: Float planes and right of way

So basically, we're debating the preferences of a seaplane pilot on glass water? I'm not sure how it pertains to the subject of seaplanes and boats sharing the water. If a seaplane intends to land on the water, the condition of the water surface is of little consequence to a vessel nearby. I'm not sure they like to land into heavy chop conditions either, but it's been done. I'm just not sure what the point is you are trying to make?

You're right, I got off topic from someone else's post a while back. The whole muffler talk also is off topic. Muffler or not, that makes little difference in airplane noise, it's mostly the propeller that you hear.

Like the two video's I posted on page one, a landing plane is very quiet. One taking off, could be very easily drowned out by a stereo and/or boat engine noise.

 

[bekosh]

Re: Float planes and right of way

So I'm sitting at a four way stop sign and it's my turn to go but,,, I see a semi coming and he isn't going to stop. Should I pull out in front of him because I have the right of way?

The Law of Gross Tonnage. He who has the Gross Tonnage, has the right of way.

From the USCG Aux website.

Law of Gross Tonnage

The law, which is more common sense then explicitly written in the code, goes like this: “The heavier vessel always has the right-of-way.”This is based on simple Newtonian physics. Newton’s first law talks about objects in motion stay in motion unless another force is acted upon it. In other words, if a boat is moving a 5 mph east and you were in the vacuum of space, it would never stop traveling east at 5 mph. However, we all know when we stop our engine on our boat, we slow down.How long it takes to go from 5 mph to zero, depends on wind, and current. Even if there was no wind or current, we’d still slow down, because the water itself provides friction upon the hull of the boat, and that in itself acts as a brake.We all have, by observation found that the bigger the object, the longer it takes to slow down. Newton’s second law of physics talks about how the amount of force required to move an object is inversely proportional to the mass of the object.So, if a tug and barge were traveling down a narrow channel, and you stopped your boat 1,000 feet away, right in front of the tug and barge; and, if the master of the tug saw you immediately; and if the master of the tug immediately began to stop the tug and barge; you’d have less than one minute to move your vessel.Because if you didn’t move your vessel in less than 60 small seconds, the tug and barge would just run right over you. It would be impossible for the master of the tug to stop, based of the collective mass of both the vessel and the barge, in 1,000 feet.The law of gross tonnage is un-relenting. It is a fact of life. What also is a fact of life, is that you should not depend on the master of the tug or any other large vessel is able to see you, either visually or on radar.​

 

[southkogs]

Re: Float planes and right of way

The Law of Gross Tonnage. He who has the Gross Tonnage, has the right of way.

No disagreement with what you've got here, and I do get the point.

It just struck me as a little humorous because a C172 is gonna' weigh in around 3,000# with floats (roughly) making it probably right in the mix of gross tonnage at the local lake at any given time. My boat will sneak up just under that weight and it's not even 20'.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Float planes and right of way

No disagreement with what you've got here, and I do get the point.

It just struck me as a little humorous because a C172 is gonna' weigh in around 3,000# with floats (roughly) making it probably right in the mix of gross tonnage at the local lake at any given time. My boat will sneak up just under that weight and it's not even 20'.

A 172S on floats will not weigh more than 2550lbs, and that's with maximum fuel/payload. I bet your 20' weighs that much, lol.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: Float planes and right of way

It doesn't matter if it's a 2500 lbs C172 on floats, or a 500 lbs ultra light on floats.

An engine block, whether it's a 6 cylinder or a 2 cylinder, traveling at 50 MPH, is going to hurt! Everyone loses!

I'm glad I'm not the only one getting off topic!