Fixing my damaged keel

[ScotWithOne_t]

I found some rocks in a shallow part of the lake on Saturday. Details are in my other thread.

Now starts the fiberglass fixing. I've never done this before, so it's time for a crash-course in fiberglassing. I'm constantly reading about it now, and my neighbor used to fix fiberglass boats at a shop years ago. Also I just found out that a guy in my building at work used to build boats (founded his own company in the 1970's), so I'm fortunate to have him to ask for pointers as well. I figure I'm ready to try my hand at fiberglass restoration.

This is probably all old-hat to you veteran boat builders/restorers, but I'm cataloging my progress anyway.

Here is the "before picture."

Also, the front is missing some gelcoat, but I don't think this was from last Saturday. If it was, it only seems to be superficial damage, and will probably just get a coat of fiber-filled Bondo.

Went to Home Depot and bought all the supplies for about $60. I'll still need to find some place that sells gel-coat, or at least some good fiberglass spraypaint.

First stage tonight was grinding. Kinda hard to take a 36-grit sanding wheel to the bottom of your boat, but oh well. Deep-breath... In for a penny, in for a pound.

Sanded away a good couple inches on either side of the damaged area:

It appears that the worst spot is still wet. The boat has been sitting since Saturday afternoon (3 days) but some water is still soaked into the fiberglass. Pressing on the bad area made some more water squeeze out. I aimed a heat-gun at it for a while and it seemed to dry out some, but I'm sure it will be moist again tomorrow. Probably hit it with some more heat before I start with the resin. I've been reading that you're supposed to let it dry completely, but that could take weeks or months. Perhaps that's just people being anal retentive, because there's no way a shop would wait that long. Are there any tricks of the trade to getting it to dry out faster? I've heard everything from propping up a hair dryer and letting it run for several days, to flushing the wound with acetone, which dried many times faster than water. Neighbor said they didn't worry much about moisture in the shop unless it was actually dripping, so I shouldn't get too excited about it. I'll talk to the guy at work tomorrow for a second opinion.

Closer pic of the moist area:

You can definitely see where the fiberglass got crunched and strained, so I'll be reinforcing those areas with a layer or two of fiberglass mat.

After inspecting the pictures, I think I probably still have a little more grinding to do tomorrow. Dang it. Fiberglass dust is nasty stuff. I took a shower and scrubbed every part of exposed skin with soap and water a couple times and I'm still all itchy.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

The reason it's still wet is because there is probabably water soaked foam in your hull and it will take FOREVER to dry out. THE Glass will NOT bond if it is WET soooo..... Get it dry !!!! IMHO. that repair is NOT an outside repair but needs to be done from the inside which means you would have to gain access by cutting a hole in the deck, remove the WET foam Dry everything out Lay 3 layers of glass and THEN do your outside repairs. That would be the correct method. Do some searching here on the forum to see how others have dealt with their keel repairs.

I'm just sayin...

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

The reason it's still wet is because there is probabably water soaked foam in your hull and it will take FOREVER to dry out. THE Glass will NOT bond if it is WET soooo..... Get it dry !!!! IMHO. that repair is NOT an outside repair but needs to be done from the inside which means you would have to gain access by cutting a hole in the deck, remove the WET foam Dry everything out Lay 3 layers of glass and THEN do your outside repairs. That would be the correct method. Do some searching here on the forum to see how others have dealt with their keel repairs.

I'm just sayin...

How can the foam get soaked? Isn't the purpose of the foam to displace water?

I'm not convinced the water got though the hull at all. I think the fiberglass just absorbed a little moisture since it got mangled in that spot.

I'll check it out again tonight as see what it looks like.

 

[JAFO1]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

How can the foam get soaked? Isn't the purpose of the foam to displace water?

I'm not convinced the water got though the hull at all. I think the fiberglass just absorbed a little moisture since it got mangled in that spot.

I'll check it out again tonight as see what it looks like.

Flotation foam is water resistant, not water proof. If your boat has other issues, the water will get into the foam and eventually absorb into the foam, rendering it useless. If you don't want to cut an inspection patch, drill a small hole and then use something dry as a probe and poke it through the hole and let it sit for a few minutes. Kind of like a dip stick. If it comes out wet, then it needs to be replaced.

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Flotation foam is water resistant, not water proof. If your boat has other issues, the water will get into the foam and eventually absorb into the foam, rendering it useless. If you don't want to cut an inspection patch, drill a small hole and then use something dry as a probe and poke it through the hole and let it sit for a few minutes. Kind of like a dip stick. If it comes out wet, then it needs to be replaced.

Are you saying to drill a hole through the keel and test it, or drill a hole through the carpet and floorboards? I'd rather not puncture the hull since like I said, I think it's still intact.

If I lift the ski-storage plate in the floor, there is still a false floor inside that, unless they just carpeted the topside of the fiberglass hull. Looks kinda flat though, so I think it's a false floor. Would there be foam underneath that? I can't imagine there's much space there.

 

[JAFO1]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Are you saying to drill a hole through the keel and test it, or drill a hole through the carpet and floorboards? I'd rather not puncture the hull since like I said, I think it's still intact.

If I lift the ski-storage plate in the floor, there is still a false floor inside that, unless they just carpeted the topside of the fiberglass hull. Looks kinda flat though, so I think it's a false floor. Would there be foam underneath that? I can't imagine there's much space there.

Sorry, check it from the top, under the carpet. Check that false door. It may save you from drilling a hole.
Now, back to the water in the hull. To me, it stands to reason, that, if water got in from the keel, it would get back out through the keel. But it looks like it is pooling in the bottom. If you aren't seeing it drip out, I think it got in there some other way, splashing, rain, or whatever.
I'm no expert. Just trying to present options.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Hello Scot..

1. People are not anal retentive when it comes to lams on wet glass..You must let it dry out. Your right shops will not wait months for it to dry.. we will find out WHY its still wet and rectify that problem. I can tell you right now that if it was wet before your grinding..now its still seeping then you have a hole ( which Wood allready said you have a hole and needs to be glassed inside and out ) sorry m8.

2. I surely hope you were wearing a suit, goggles, and a Respo when you were grinding. For the Itch .. take a hot shower Real hot.. then lather up with some thick and foamy shaving cream .. let that start to melt off .. rinse well using motions of " with the grain of your pores " .. when rinsed Turn the shower to COLD as you can stand for a bit. Also use Cotton sheets not that poly blend stuff.

YD.

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Hello Scot..

1. People are not anal retentive when it comes to lams on wet glass..You must let it dry out. Your right shops will not wait months for it to dry.. we will find out WHY its still wet and rectify that problem. I can tell you right now that if it was wet before your grinding..now its still seeping then you have a hole ( which Wood allready said you have a hole and needs to be glassed inside and out ) sorry m8.

2. I surely hope you were wearing a suit, goggles, and a Respo when you were grinding. For the Itch .. take a hot shower Real hot.. then lather up with some thick and foamy shaving cream .. let that start to melt off .. rinse well using motions of " with the grain of your pores " .. when rinsed Turn the shower to COLD as you can stand for a bit. Also use Cotton sheets not that poly blend stuff.

YD.

I'll see if I can access the top of the damage from the ski-storage hole, but I think there's a false floor there as well. If I'm lucky, it's just carpet over the bottom glass. If not, then, well, it's back to the heat gun and evaporating as much as I can. As far as glassing from the inside, I don't even know where to start for taking out the floorboards. Are they typically just screwed/bolted down, or are we talking sawzall/hammer-time? If it's the latter, then I'll have to take my chances with the unadvised outside-only patch method. But honestly, there is not a hole. At worst it's a crack, or some delamination in a very localized area which allowed water to seep in. If I could poke my finger through, then I'd be more concerned. I certainly don't like the idea of a band-aid fix, and would rather do it right, but I think that may be out of the scope of my DIYitude, and throwing thousands of dollars at a shop to do it isn't worth it for a 14 year old $6k boat.

Oh, and yes, I was wearing a respirator and goggles (although the goggles don't seal well with the resp. on). Took the resp. off and later did some tough-up sanding. I'm sure it wasn't good for me. If/when I do any more grinding, I'll be using the respirator again.

Thanks for the advice and ideas so far.

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Quick update:

Checked the bad spot just now and it is bone-dry. At the very least, I can glass it from the outside now.

I pulled up the carpet in the ski-locker and discovered that it is indeed a false floor with a small drain in the back.

The carpet in the locker is soggy and nasty. The very back of the locker is right about on top of the damaged area. I may go get a hole saw and make that drain whole a couple inches in diameter so I can throw some glass there too. Maybe maked this fix go from half-a**ed to 3/4-a**ed.

Further inspection in the engine room I see that water is pooling in front of what I can only guess is the depth sensor. This is right below the gas tank (at least I assume it's the tank) in front of the engine and the depth sensor kinda of blocks the flow of water to the bilge. Craptastic design if I've ever seen one. Basically, it means you will never fully drain the hull.

I stuffed a chamois in there just now to soak up any remaining water. should be ready for glass (at least from underneath) any time now.

 

[JAFO1]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Hello Scot..

1. People are not anal retentive when it comes to lams on wet glass..You must let it dry out. Your right shops will not wait months for it to dry.. we will find out WHY its still wet and rectify that problem. I can tell you right now that if it was wet before your grinding..now its still seeping then you have a hole ( which Wood allready said you have a hole and needs to be glassed inside and out ) sorry m8.

2. I surely hope you were wearing a suit, goggles, and a Respo when you were grinding. For the Itch .. take a hot shower Real hot.. then lather up with some thick and foamy shaving cream .. let that start to melt off .. rinse well using motions of " with the grain of your pores " .. when rinsed Turn the shower to COLD as you can stand for a bit. Also use Cotton sheets not that poly blend stuff.

YD.

Shaving cream? Good to know. I have a ton of it left over (from a Costco six pack, or whatever.) I rarely shave.

Also Doc, are you saying you think the water got in from the keel rash? Or came top down?
One T'ed Scot (it took me a bit to get your handle), you didn't say if it was dripping.

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Shaving cream? Good to know. I have a ton of it left over (from a Costco six pack, or whatever.) I rarely shave.

Also Doc, are you saying you think the water got in from the keel rash? Or came top down?
One T'ed Scot (it took me a bit to get your handle), you didn't say if it was dripping.

It may have been dripping very slightly the when I got it home from the lake that afternoon/evening... I can't remember positively. Last night after sanding, it was more or less just wet, and if I pushed on it, the layers would squeeze out another drop that would wet my finger. Otherwise it was just moist.

Now, it's 100% dry, but the ski-locker was quite wet. After seeing the pooled water in the back now that the boat is tilted back, I'm wondering if the water was dripping through the damage earlier, or if it was simply soaked into the fiber while it was on the lake and took a couple days to dry. From what I've read, fiberglass is very porous and will soak water, especially when it is a bit mangled.

The other possibility is that since the boat was angled forward the last few days before I started working on it, the water had settled more towards the middle of the boat (above the damage) and was saturating the fiberglass from above.

ETA:
and yeah, my name is a bit unusual, and every time I tell it to someone who needs to write it down, I always have to add the "with one T" addendum.
I was thinking about painting "BoatWithOne_t" on my transom.
Though now, I'm thinking "Rock Bottom" would be a better name.

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Didn't get a whole lot more done tonight, but I did sand a bit more, vacuumed up a crapload of nasty fiberglass dust, and made templates for the patches out of wax-paper.

Going with three layers of increasing size on the worst part (middle of keel), and 2 layers toward the side where it was more of just a scrape, and not crushed glass.

Transferred the templates to the fiberglass mat.

Then cut them out.

I figured it was going to be hard to cut fiberglass, but my trusty Westcott Titanium shears went through it like butter. I've never loved a pair of scissors so much in my life.

I'll probably glue it up tomorrow, and maybe even sand and Bondo it. Hell... might be ready for the water by Sunday, depending on my ambition.

*checks weather for this weekend*

... ambition level rising...

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Are you using poly or epoxy? If Poly resin is it waxed or unwaxed. Makes a difference in how you prepare between coats. Do NOT use bondo. It is not for marine use. Get some 3M Marine Grade Filler.

I'm just sayin...

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Are you using poly or epoxy? If Poly resin is it waxed or unwaxed. Makes a difference in how you prepare between coats. Do NOT use bondo. It is not for marine use. Get some 3M Marine Grade Filler.

I'm just sayin...

Umm... I have no idea. I bought whatever resin they sell at Home Depot. Shouldn't it say on the can how to prep the surface? The can says it's sandable after 2 hours. I plan on putting on all 3 layers at once though, unless you recommend doing them one at a time, letting it harden and resanding/scuffing the surface between each layer.

The body filler I bought says it's for fiberglass, and is made by 3M (Bondo brand). It's fiber reinforced and it says it's waterproof. What's the difference between it and the marine-grade filler you posted? I'm guessing the marine-grade is.... more waterproof?? Any idea where the MG-filler can be purchased? I'd hate to have to order through Overton's or something and delay the project another week.

Also gonna need a source for gel-coat.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

What you get at HD is waxed and yes you can put all the layers on at one time if you work fast enough. If it gels on you then you have to wait and sand before applying the next layer. The fiber reinforced Bondo is Water RESISTANT but NOT WaterProof, it WILL absorb water which is NOT GOOD. Do you have a marina in your area or someone that sells boats? They might have the 3M product. West Marine carries it and they will also have the Gel coat. I would recommend that you get some glass bubbles to thicken your gel coat a bit to make it easier to apply and sand and then apply the last couple of coats normal. Where in Minnesota do you live?

I'm just sayin...

 

[ScotWithOne_t]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

What you get at HD is waxed and yes you can put all the layers on at one time if you work fast enough. If it gels on you then you have to wait and sand before applying the next layer. The fiber reinforced Bondo is Water RESISTANT but NOT WaterProof, it WILL absorb water which is NOT GOOD. Do you have a marina in your area or someone that sells boats? They might have the 3M product. West Marine carries it and they will also have the Gel coat. I would recommend that you get some glass bubbles to thicken your gel coat a bit to make it easier to apply and sand and then apply the last couple of coats normal. Where in Minnesota do you live?

I'm just sayin...

Experienced boat builder guy at work (henceforth known as EBBG) told me pretty much the same about the Home Depot resin. The wax comes to the surface to seal the resin for curing and prevent the resin from being tacky or something is what I got out of it. Basically, I have to sand the wax away and re-scuff the surface if I do one layer at a time.

EBBG also says he uses glass filled Bondo from Wal-Mart, which I'm assuming is the same as what I got from HD. Does the water-proofness really matter that much if I'm planning on gel-coating it? Perhaps the marine-grade stuff is made for using to fill and not gelcoat?

I'm in the north part of the Minneapolis metro area. Looks like there's a West Marine halfway across town. I'll probably go there and pick up some of the gelcoat, and maybe some marine filler.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Well think of it this way, the Keel WILL get scratched again and then the bondo would be exposed. It WOULD absorb water which would then begin to work on delaminating the glass... NOT GOOD. Since your into this far do it right so you won't have to do it again.

By the way your friend was Spot On Correctamundo!!!!!!!

I'm just sayin...

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Hello Scot..

I still say you have a hole in the boat.

Looking at your grind out pics and all that white glass.. You know what Im talking about . That IS dead Glass m8..

Your approach may be EZ .. but its not really the Right way.. You are going to glass ( which looks like only mat ) over bad glass. Thats a NO no..

Grind out ALL of that "white" glass and your going to find a hole .. therefore your going to have to grind/glass inside and out .. ( Should at any rate IMHO ).

NO fillers but glass...no bondo (3m stuff etc) glass..fair..gel .

Hope this helps in some way m8..

YD.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

On those fillers, read the content, if it contains talc its no good regardless what the label says. Talc absorbs water, swells and pops loose.

Much better to buy some cabosil and mix your own.

 

[adamjr]

Re: Fixing my damaged keel

Filler is more of a finish item as well. What you need to be using is un-waxed RESIN. Whether you use epoxy or poly is up to you. The fiber reinforced filler will likely also reduce the absorption into the new cloth you are trying to laminate.

Bondo is absolutely NOT for below the water line use. If you're boating correctly your keel should definitely be below the water line.

Let's just put it this way, a gallon of poly resin at my local auto body supply shop is about $40.00 with a MEKP hardner. That can't be too much more then what you spent at Home Depot. Do you want to do it half way or all the way. Do it half way and you may render the boat useless and maybe even sink it. Spend a little more, do it right and have the repair last longer thn the original lamination.