Ethanol!

[airshot]

Well....guess I will add my experiences with E10 fuel....in the early days, I followed the fuel recommendations and changed all the fuel hoses to E10 compatible hose. Cleaned out my fuel systems and started using E10 fuel. The only issues I have had in all these years was caused from buying contaminated fuel to begin with. I did a lot of fuel testing before I was able to find stations that actually sold clean fuel with no water in it ! When I did find poor fuel, I reported it to the station owner then onto the county inspector if the owner did not correct the problem. Did not take long for the word to spread about dirty fuel. The local farmers group started a co op station for bothering gas and diesel including E0 fuels. I have never found contaminated fuel there nor has anyone else. We have a few old car collecters that come in and use the fuels at this station just because they know the fuel is good. My neighbor is one of those collecters, he has a dozen old Mopar high performance vehicles, including the 440 Magnum, Super Bird, Road Runner and other of that caliber. He and I have been using E 10 fuels for decades, never an issue as long as we treat it on purchase.
The cost of treating the fuel is cheaper than paying and extra fifty cents a gallon or more for the E0 fuel, and even that should be treated as it will go bad over time. I was a mechanic back in the later 60's and 70's and cleaning gunk out of carbs and treating fuels with " gumout" was very popular. When the E 10 fuels came out, the local drag racers were fighting to get it as their cars ran better and faster with it....your money, spend it now you like, but if your buying E10 and have an issue, look deeper than just blaming it on the E 10 gasoline itself.

 

[JimS123]

Well....guess I will add my experiences with E10 fuel....in the early days, I followed the fuel recommendations and changed all the fuel hoses to E10 compatible hose. Cleaned out my fuel systems and started using E10 fuel. The only issues I have had in all these years was caused from buying contaminated fuel to begin with. I did a lot of fuel testing before I was able to find stations that actually sold clean fuel with no water in it ! When I did find poor fuel, I reported it to the station owner then onto the county inspector if the owner did not correct the problem. Did not take long for the word to spread about dirty fuel. The local farmers group started a co op station for bothering gas and diesel including E0 fuels. I have never found contaminated fuel there nor has anyone else. We have a few old car collecters that come in and use the fuels at this station just because they know the fuel is good. My neighbor is one of those collecters, he has a dozen old Mopar high performance vehicles, including the 440 Magnum, Super Bird, Road Runner and other of that caliber. He and I have been using E 10 fuels for decades, never an issue as long as we treat it on purchase.
The cost of treating the fuel is cheaper than paying and extra fifty cents a gallon or more for the E0 fuel, and even that should be treated as it will go bad over time. I was a mechanic back in the later 60's and 70's and cleaning gunk out of carbs and treating fuels with " gumout" was very popular. When the E 10 fuels came out, the local drag racers were fighting to get it as their cars ran better and faster with it....your money, spend it now you like, but if your buying E10 and have an issue, look deeper than just blaming it on the E 10 gasoline itself.

E10 is a big boon. When a mechanic can't figure out what the problem is (was), now he has something to blame. Lots of reading to be had if you google the myths of ethanol.

My old 1980 Ponch has been running on E10 since it was first available. Never had a carb problem. My 1952 'Rude Big Twin has also had good luck, though the fuel lines and carb have been replaced with ethanol resistant parts.

A few years ago a Consumer Advocate group quietly did a survey of a number of different gas stations. They took samples and had a lab analyze them. E0 ranged from 0% ethanol up to about 10%. E10 ranged from 0% to about 15. It's obvious that you never know what you might get. I don't know if things have improved or not.

To follow-up on my original post.....I drained the tank and refilled it with E0. ($5.19 a gallon was a hard pill to swallow - fortunately the tank is only 0.3 gallons). I will add Seafoam to the mix as well.

Unfortunately, Summer is waning and I don't expect to get time for much running any more. I suspect my root cause is lack of use, but that has to do with the motor's purpose. It's a 2016 and has about 7 hours on the clock.

Thanks to all for the replies.

 

[matt167]

I run 90-93 Ethanol free in my ‘51 Plymouth for 2 reasons, the fuel pump and the carburetor. The engine itself would run on 70 octane and be happy but it’s a pretty original car and I’m not sure if the fuel pump or carburetor have been rebuilt ethanol compliant so it’s cheap insurance to pay $1 more per gallon for the 2-300 miles I might drive it per year.. everything else I have gets 87 unless it needs higher octane. Never an issue.
Everything gets stabilized

 

[ratdude747]

I run E10 during the season and E0 on the last fill up or two at the end of the season for winter storage. My Mercruiser 888 is spec'd for Leaded 88... so I usually add a gallon or two of premium (93) and the rest regular (87) when running E10. The E0 I can get is all 90 octane, so it's good to use straight. I used to run lead substitute every 3rd fill up but I gave up on it figuring what I can get is likely $8 snake oil.

I'll note that I run my boat on a 2-3 weekend gap... I'd be comfortable letting it go up to 5-6 weeks with E-10 sitting (after that, the absorbed water becomes a corrosion hazard). All rubber fuel lines have been replaced and the carb (not stock, see my signature) was recently rebuilt as well. The pump is stock (to my knowledge), but they've been using butyl rubber for pump diaphragms since the early 70's which is compatible with ethanol.

10% ethanol is good for 3 AKI of Octane... which why E0 90 usually costs as much a E10 93. Same base fuel...

 

[Jim Hawkins]

I have never run anything in my F70 Yamaha but Ethanol fuel and no stabilizers.
9 years and I've never changed anything but plugs, oil and water pump.
I like the way that, unlike ethanol free, It will keep small amounts of water from collecting in a puddle in the tank but instead, disperses it and runs it through.
It's also what I run in my carbureted motors.
Fuel problems, I think, come mostly from fuel tanks exposed to rain and fuel, any fuel, left too long in a carb bowl.

 

[dingbat]

i would love to see test data on todays electric powered equipment

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If true, the specs on the zero turns are pretty impressive.

 

[Lou C]

E10 if that's what you're really getting, does not seem to cause problems in fuel injected engines because there is no open air vent in the system like a carb. I drain all my small engine carbs except the tiny cube carbs on my 2 stroke Echos. Doing that I have not had trouble. Running E10 on 2 identical Suzuki DF 2.5s with that tiny carb, one drained (mine) and one not (a relative's) the one that was drained starts up each season, the one that wasn't was full of crud. Wound up having to change the carb on that one.
With my I/O what I am going to start doing is run it on a separate tank when I winterize it, so the carb & fuel pump are full of E0 fuel for the winter storage season. I don't really have a problem with running E10 during the season, but when a vented fuel system sits, in a damp climate like Long Island, bad things start happening, maybe not every year but sooner or later, it does....
Those of you in warmer dryer climates may never see this. Dampness, and temps dropping below the dew point, cause condensation unless stored inside.

 

[dingbat]

E10 if that's what you're really getting, does not seem to cause problems in fuel injected engines because there is no open air vent in the system like a carb.

The fuel tank on an EFI isn’t vented?

 

[Lou C]

Yes the tank is vented but the actual EFI system is not. So, if you get small amounts of water in the tank, the fuel filter (if a true water separating style) usually will take care of it.
EFI works simply on pressure needed to feed the injectors, based on what the sensors feed into the ECM, unless it also has a vapor separation tank, those might have a vent. A carb has to have an open vent, to allow atmospheric pressure to act on the fuel in the bowl, which is then forced into the venturis because of the low pressure area below the throttle plate. Auto systems to my knowledge do not use vapor separating tanks but I have seen inboards that do (Volvo Pentas, not sure about Mercs). When moisture mixes with the fuel in the bowl, it forms a crud, that will clog jets that are in the bottom of the bowl. This problem occurs after the filter(s) and is what people who store any carbed engine with E10 fuel sooner or later run into.
All the fuel injected vehicles I have owned, not one has ever had an ethanol related problem, and one is 28 years old, the EFI system has never been touched. All original.
Carbs, because they have the open bowl vent, are very susceptible to moisture intrusion.

 

[Scott06]

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If true, the specs on the zero turns are pretty impressive.

I was looking at getting a good sized zero turn like that as well.

I was dead set against it until I bought a cheap battery powered leaf blower and weed wacker (eGo $180-200) off amazon. The weedwacker can reverse the head to power wind the string on. They share the same battery which seems to hold up well enough for a decent round of weed wacking and blowing before dying.

While Im sure the ability to self repair these things might be a stumbling point, between the boat, jetski, 4 cars, and two tractors Im doing enough annual maintenace and oil changes annually...

 

[dingbat]

I was dead set against it until I bought a cheap battery powered leaf blower and weed wacker (eGo $180-200) off amazon. The weedwacker can reverse the head to power wind the string on. They share the same battery which seems to hold up well enough for a decent round of weed wacking and blowing before dying.

I have 28 acres and a little over 1/2 mile of fence line to maintain.
Getting tired of dragging 200 ft. of extension cord to trim the bushes off the drive.

I entertained going gas powered but the ease of use of electric is attractive Wouldn't cost that much more to go cordless. My only concern is battery maintenance. I never seem to get more than a year or so out of a battery. Not sure I want to take the chance with batteries at $150 a pop

 

[dingbat]

Yes the tank is vented but the actual EFI system is not. So, if you get small amounts of water in the tank, the fuel filter (if a true water separating style) usually will take care of it.
EFI works simply on pressure needed to feed the injectors, based on what the sensors feed into the ECM, unless it also has a vapor separation tank, those might have a vent. A carb has to have an open vent, to allow atmospheric pressure to act on the fuel in the bowl, which is then forced into the venturis because of the low pressure area below the throttle plate. Auto systems to my knowledge do not use vapor separating tanks but I have seen inboards that do (Volvo Pentas, not sure about Mercs). When moisture mixes with the fuel in the bowl, it forms a crud, that will clog jets that are in the bottom of the bowl. This problem occurs after the filter(s) and is what people who store any carbed engine with E10 fuel sooner or later run into.
All the fuel injected vehicles I have owned, not one has ever had an ethanol related problem, and one is 28 years old, the EFI system has never been touched. All original.
Carbs, because they have the open bowl vent, are very susceptible to moisture intrusion.

I couldn't have made a better case myself for why carburetors suck...lol

 

[airshot]

I just don't understand all the issues with E10 fuels when a simple additive can stop all the issues. I have always used a fuel additive since I became a boat motor owner back in the mid 60's. I have owned motors for many years and never needed to rebuild a carb due to crud or gunk buildup, as the additive prevented these issues. And I always keep fuel filters inline to prevent crud from getting to the carbs. Simple maintenence, filters, and an additive prevents most issues. If you still have problems after these simple steps, then your probably buying poor quality fuel to begin with.

 

[Lou C]

The issue is this:
this is all being done for political and economic reasons
adding ethanol to motor fuel raises octane but causes many many problems with small engines and marine engines. Not only that I have found via my own testing on trips to upstate NY where I could buy E0 fuel, there is less energy in E10 fuel and you get lower MPGs with it (I measured about 2-3 over a 250 mile trip). It is not better for engines!
As I said in my previous posts your CLIMATE is a significant factor. Damp humid climates, wide temperature swings, etc all make it a PROBLEM.
If you're in dryer climate you may never see these same problems.
Stabil does not stop all the issues, when the fuel pulls in moisture, and it evaporates, you get a jet clogging crud inside small carbs. As long as I have my old inboard, it's getting E0 for winterizing. Trust me pulling apart a Quadrajet isn't fun every so often just because we are forced to use E10 (yes that's how it is in Southern N Y State), unless you want to go to the two (2) stations in all of Long Island that sell E0 fuel for about 8 bucks a gallon. Our leaders have badly failed us on this one, one of the many ways their ignorance costs us money. Some won't like what I say but in my climate, it is TRUE.

 

[Silvertip]

Yeah, yeah THAT thread again. I have my opinions, but I just wanted to see what the general consensus is.

My problem has been with a Merc 3.5 HP 4-stroke. I knew going in that it had small jets and they recommend running the gas out after each use. So, I do. Also use stabil with every fillup. One of the problems is that she is only a kicker and gets very little use.

I had 8 trouble-free years. Last year she wouldn't start. My dealer rebuilt the carb and it ran ok. This year she started but even after 20 minutes running would not reach full rpm and eventually stalled and would not restart. My mechanic rebuilt the carb again and said it had green gunk inside.

Again this year I was chastised for not running E0. I have never run anything but E10 in EVERYTHING. My position is that the ethanol helps keep the carbs clean. As an example my 45 year old Pontiac Bonneville V8 has not needed a carb rebuild since we started using ethanol.

Now my caveat is.....provided that you take care of your equipment. All my stuff is kept in a dry secure garage and with a full tank.

So what say ye? Should I switch to E0 in this little guy?

I agree with you that the problem likely is not E10. We've been running E10 in Minnesota for eons and after all the non-ethanol fuel system components and filters were replaced the good stuff, the E10 issue went away. I have a ancient Ryobi leaf blower that has seen nothing but E10 for decades and only this year did I need to replace the in-tank fuel line that had hardened and broken off. You likely have an issue with a fuel system contaminated with something. I once had an issue with plastic bits in a new fuel tank that plugged the pickup tube. A trip to the local store revealed nearly every plastic fuel tank had this stuff in them. However, after many years of running fine, and now all the issues you might want to look at the addititves you are using, where you buy your fuel, etc. Long shot to be sure.

 

[Lou C]

The fuel lines on one of my Echos and my Husky saw melted from E10!

 

[Pmt133]

I actually get more fuel smell from permeation on the vette after I replaced all the 40 year old rubber lines with proper ethanol rated ones than it did before I touched anything. I guess those old goodyear fluroelastomer lines were pretty good.