electric problem for the pro's!

[pthein]

I have twin 87 200 HP Yamaha's. The electrical system is twin batteries connected to a battery selector switch. BOTH engines are connected to the battery switch. <br /><br />Problem I am having is as follows:<br />When one key is turned on BOTH engine instruments will energize as if both keys have been turned on. Additionally when the oil system does its self check and refill of the oil tanks from the remote if one engine needs oil and the pump activates, BOTH pumps will actually run possibly causing an overfill if oil is not needed on the other engine. <br /><br />Dealer tried hooking the engines up to seperate electrical sources (instead of the common switch) and found both problems corrected. Dealer suggested a second battery switch and battery thus seperating the electrical sources. What is going on here? The boat was delivered from factory with one switch and both motors connected to the same source of power but now I have these symptoms. I have checked all wiring and there are no frayed wires, no dirty grounds. I checked the switches for continuity to the other side and found no problems. Do I have a bad oil control unit? Where should I look for find what is causing this "crosstalk" between the engines. I really dont want to go changing my electrical system as a suggested cure to a problem when it has been working as is since new in 87..........HELP!!!

 

[clanton]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Has it always done this? What repair work was done before the problem appered?

 

[petryshyn]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

hello pthein:<br /><br />The only yamaha's around here have two wheels, so you are going to have to help me out first...<br /><br />>Did this problem occur after any accessories added recently????<br />>Before the problem started, was there an accessory, light or radio that both keys would turn on independently?<br />>If two separate accessories have a common ground, and the ground is lost or broken, it will result in feedback.<br />>the place to start is to check every acc. on the boat for proper operation. Also be sure all the grounds for the oiling system are intact. Bypass them manualy with a jumper lead just to be sure and see if problem clears. <br />> are any lights dim???<br /><br />Bad or broken grounds are often the cause of your "crosstalk"<br /><br />Good luck<br /><br />

 

[Trent]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

After that Schematic..I just found out whats wrong with the wifes "crosstalk" A BAD GROUND!! <br /><br />Iv been thinking PMS all these years!!

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Schematic.....<br /><br />All the accessories are on a seperate battery system. They do share a common ground someplace though.....There are no accessories that are powered with the ignition key though....The only thing I can think of is the compass is backlight by either key switch...I think....I will have to go check! Any other suggestions?

 

[petryshyn]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Are there any wires going from one key switch to the other key switch?<br /><br />Are you saying that each engine has its own gauges and they 'all' come on with either key?

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

The only wires in the control box which houses the key switches that connects the left anf right side are the wires that are sonnected to the single engine kill switch. I have removed this control box and checked for continuity between each side - but there is zero continuity between the two sides anyplace. <br /><br />Yes each engine has its own guages. The only guages they share in common might be the backlighting of the compass and the spedo.....When you turn either switch on (left or right) BOTH side engine instruments and the associated backlihgting will come on.

 

[petryshyn]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Ahhhh, the plot thickens......thats the common acc. I asked about....<br /><br />>you say the backlighting comes on with either key and it always did, yet the gauges were dedicated to each key? The only (most common) way to have the lights come on with each key, and yet not have them connected, is through 2 diodes. If one shorts out, you lose your isolation. Look around for a diode somewhere around the electrical system. <br />

<br /><br />Is this is true.....<br />>Both gauge lights and compass lights always used to come on with either key.<br /><br />

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

I will be out checking the backlighting wiring and associated circuits bright and early.......I will let you know what I find. I am not sure if all the backlighting is supposed to come on with either key or if only the associated though.

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Just spent the last few hours playing with tons of wires. I took all of the instrument backlihgting out, disconnecting it and still had the problem. Any other ideas?

 

[12Footer]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Well allrighty then..Does your boat have a "battery isolator"? This will be a cube shaped device near the battery switch and batteries. If this device fails, it will no longer isolate the batteries, hence the problem you describe. And then there is that doide thing Schematic spoke of. Theyare there, they have to be. And an isolator is little more than a fancy set of diodes in a pretty package. Battery isolators cannot hold up to poorly regulated engines, and I have never seen a decently regulated outboard by any maker. So it WILL be the weakest llnk...Goodbye.<br />Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[petryshyn]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

pthein:<br />you gotta answer the following questions...<br /><br />>>Did this problem occur after any accessories added recently????<br />>>I really gotta know what used to come on with either key.<br />>>are there any terminals on the ign switch that have more than one wire to them?<br /><br />>>Take a v.meter or testlight and check all the terminals on ign2 while switching ign1 on and off. Are any leads on ign2 effected by ign1? <br />>> now reverse the process....are any leads on ign1 affected by switching ign2 on and off?<br /><br />Let me know the results...

 

[Pursuit2150]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

I think it's time to do a TOTAL wiring check-out,start at one end (not in the middle) It is great to have a helper. There is probably a bunch of wires going from here to there. You have to identify each one and lable each one (masking tape tag) is fine for now. With an ohm meter check to see if each wire is connected to where it is suppose to be.<br />CASE IN POINT> 2 years ago we were trying to figure out why 1 battery, even when NEW would discharge after only a few hours of running. From going from A to B, I pulled on a wire and told my friend "See where this goes, it's RED, he said no it's not it's BLK, and goes to the neg. terminal" You can figure the rest out. What the original owner did was run out of red, so he spliced in blk.

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Schematic....<br /><br />There really are no terminals on the ignition switches. Yamaha uses wiring harnesses and binacles to pre wired units. The switches have no terminals rather they have a bunch of wires that come out of a sealed unit. I did test at each binacle for any continuity to the other side and there was non indicating to me that the switches were not the problem. As for what came on (backlighting etc.) before I really dont know because the boat is new to me. I assume all of the backlighting came on with either key turned on and only the respective side instruments would energize with their respective key. I did spend a significant part of the day searching the backlihgting system out and found noplace that would indicate a bad ground. I didnt even find any diodes. Again Yamaha uses pre wired harnesses and binacles to attach the instruments. If there is a diode in there somewhere, I cant find it! I dont think any accessories were added prior to me owning the boat. Like I said boat is new to me and I am just trying to get it working again. As for all of those trying to convince me to rewire with two battery switches, I was reading the owners manual and Grady had a wiring diagram that showed both engines wired to the same switch - so that part is the way it was designed to be.......So where do I go now?

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

12footer.....<br /><br />No battery isolators in this boat! Dont believe in them since the drop the voltage and dont allow for a complete charge. As for the smaller diodes in the backlighting system...maybe they are there, but I havent found them and I had all of the dash out and apart! If you know where they are I would love to know!

 

[12Footer]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

The pic Schematic posted above is a good idea of what they look like, and can be literally anywhere in the wire harness. But more likely,attached to the terminal of the ignition switch, gauge lamp, or on the positive of each "ACC" line at the batteies. They are usually encased in heatshrink tubing,so look for a bulge in the wire.<br />They range from 1/8" to 3/8" in diameter, and are anywhere from 1/4" to 1" long.

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

12footer.....thanks for the info. I looked for the mentioned teltale indicators of diodes. I am familiar with electronics and know what they look like. I just didnt find any. Nothing in the wiring at the back of the guages. Nothing inside the control boxes. Nothing coming off any of the wires from the ignitions.

 

[petryshyn]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Hold the phone!! Stop the ride!! Throw the anchor!!<br /><br />>Perhaps I should have been more receptive...<br />>This boat is 'new' to you?!!<br />>Maybe the gauges and illumination always came on with either key!<br />>Maybe we're chasing our tail!<br />>I see no reason not to tie the acc. together.<br />>Maybe all that’s wrong is incorporated in your oiling system overfilling issue!!<br />>Maybe we better start there!!<br />>Can you describe the oiling system, and what resides in the main oil tank.(pumps, switches, wires etc.)

 

[pthein]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

Here is the basics of the oiling system. Remote oil tank feeds under hood tank when the float in the main tank reads low. A signal is sent to the reserve tank pump which fills the main tank until the float tells it to shut off. Both side systems work fine if hooked to different batteries. I have inspected the pumps and wiring accordingly. Again the problem is when one engine wants to fill that tank and sends a pump signal BOTH pumps will cycle regardless if the other enginge needs oil possibly causing an overfill....if you go back and read the first post you will see that I described two symptoms - unknown if they are related.

 

[petryshyn]

Re: electric problem for the pro's!

pthein:<br /><br />If you can find a schematic for the engine and oiling system, I can help you. Until then, I can only guess. Pending on how yamaha does things.....there could be a digital sig. from tank-sender to pump module, or it could all be simple switching. Is there a module that runs the pump, or just wires back to the engine? How many wires going to each pump? Can you manualy move the oil level sensors? If so, does each sensor run both pumps?<br /><br />If there are modules involved that rely on digital signals, one would assume yamaha is smart enough to provide the ability to change the digital signature of each engine's pump requests, which would allow simultaneous operation of two motors. This is why I'd need a diagram.........sorry, hope I didn't waste your time.