e-tec or 4 stroke.

[dingbat]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

Simple is efficient in my book I.E. the motor runs well and to he** with the fuel consumption. I got my boat to enjoy it not to worry too much about a few extra bucks in gas.

That attitude soon changes when it takes $545 to fill up and you burn up $500 of it in an afternoon of fishing. For me the difference between a 4S or a DFI 2S compared to a carbed motor is about $200 a trip. Multiply that by the 10 or so trips? well you get the idea. .

Yep, and your 85 Johnny will still be running when 2007 model year OBs are being parted out for scrap. Old technology is most definitely better.

We where tuna fishing 45 miles offshore yesterday and I don?t believe I saw any "old technology" floating around out there. Seeing that the safety of your boat and crew is paramount offshore I would have imagined that I would have seen all types of ?old technology? floating about out there if the new motors where so unreliable.

 

[hitace]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

every thing works good when its new.give it a few years.im with bassboy the old stuff lives forever and soooooo simple.if something breaks 10 bucks and no problem.now adays if your out of warranty think more 100 bucks and you better be really really good to work on the new stuff they got out now.

 

[JB]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

Why buy old technology called 4 strokes when you can buy superior technology called etec?
bp

A modern EFI 4 stroke with VVT is hardly "old" tech, Bill. When they go to DFI and stratified charge, they will be well ahead of the etec.

On my recent trip to Lake Of The Woods I took inventory of the marina. One 2stroke Merc Opti, One 2 stroke Yammy 70. The rest were all 4 strokes; one Merc and about a half dozen each Suzuki and Yamaha, plus Honda 40s on all the rental boats. Three of those were guide boats. The rest were private guest boats.

When I asked the guides why no E-tecs they replied that they need 5,000 hours out of an outboard. They trust the Yammys and the Suzis and don't like BRP's prices. Our main guide's Yammy F150 has about 4,000 hours with zero unscheduled downtime. Our second guide has a Suzi DF150 that is only about a year old. Again, reliable as a hammer.

I didn't quiz any of the guests but assume that they are strongly influenced by the guides' choices. The same groups of people come back there year after year.

In its day, FICHT and Optimax were also "superior" technology. The guides at LOTW got severely burned by that.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

What's overlooked here is that resorts (especially the large ones) are often privy to outboard engine and boat deals from the manufacturers that the average consumer cannot come close to. Why do you suppose you can by Mercury "program" engines for half price on the web after a year or two years worth of use. Most of the big resorts run Lund boats. What engines do you think the Lund factory likes to package on those boats? It certainly isn't E-tec. Brunswick owns so many boat manufacturers these days you have a hard time buying any other engine. I run an Alumacraft (that happens to have a Merc on it) but I bought the boat because it was one of the few manufacturers that would sell a boat with no "pre-rig". In my view, the number of Mercs one sees is just one issue. Since Merc is obviously pushing 4-strokes, it stands to reason you see more of them. I was once ushered out of a shop in Northern Minnesota two years ago when I happened to count 18 four stroke blocks on the shop floor, each with a hole in the block where a rod had found its way out. They were grey so that should give you an idea who build them. There was also one V6 block that was also ventilated in similar fashion. I saw only one two stroke block on the shop floor covered with dust and grim and obvious many years old. When asked about the problem I was ushered out of that area of the shop with no explaination. I'm certainly not disputing the fact that there are more Merc and other four strokes around than E-tecs. That alone doesn't make them better. It does mean there is probably a business model (buy the competition) at work here. And I think we all know what happens when one company controls the market.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

....... I was once ushered out of a shop in Northern Minnesota two years ago when I happened to count 18 four stroke blocks on the shop floor, each with a hole in the block where a rod had found its way out. They were grey so that should give you an idea who build them. There was also one V6 block that was also ventilated in similar fashion. I saw only one two stroke block on the shop floor covered with dust and grim and obvious many years old. When asked about the problem I was ushered out of that area of the shop with no explaination........

Wow!, eighteen in one dealer! Seems they would have stacked them outside somewhere to make room for 30 more.
With iboats being one of the largest internet boating sites one would think that there would be post after post of people complaining of holes in thier 4stroke engine blocks to correspond with your observation.

Thanks Seahorse5 for the info you provided.
NMMA didn't seperate by manufacture.

 

[licketdsplit756]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

evinrude will send you a cd on the e tech motor where it is having a tug a war with another boat that has a four stroke on it. the 2 strock pulls in back words and capsizes the 4 stroke. thell send you info free and also a cd. convinced me. 2stroke is the way to go

 

[Husker100]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-7I00cZUE0

 

[BillP]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

A modern EFI 4 stroke with VVT is hardly "old" tech, Bill. When they go to DFI and stratified charge, they will be well ahead of the etec.

On my recent trip to Lake Of The Woods I took inventory of the marina. One 2stroke Merc Opti, One 2 stroke Yammy 70. The rest were all 4 strokes; one Merc and about a half dozen each Suzuki and Yamaha, plus Honda 40s on all the rental boats. Three of those were guide boats. The rest were private guest boats.

When I asked the guides why no E-tecs they replied that they need 5,000 hours out of an outboard. They trust the Yammys and the Suzis and don't like BRP's prices. Our main guide's Yammy F150 has about 4,000 hours with zero unscheduled downtime. Our second guide has a Suzi DF150 that is only about a year old. Again, reliable as a hammer.

I didn't quiz any of the guests but assume that they are strongly influenced by the guides' choices. The same groups of people come back there year after year.

In its day, FICHT and Optimax were also "superior" technology. The guides at LOTW got severely burned by that.

Whatever technology happens in the future is something I can't comment on for fact...and comparing etec with OMC is like comparing Suzuki with OMC. It isn't apples to apples.

Otherwise, I hear ya but I work pt in a marine place (fyi...we sell merc motors) and come in contact with 30-50 or more outboard owners on any given day...marina owners, boat dealers, seatow, towboatsUS, marine patrol, weekend warriors, commercial fishermen, guides, mechanics, etc. What I see on boats and hear from customers in big numbers is 4 strokes getting a seriously bad rap for high maintenance and the downtime to do it. Owners choke at the cost of regular scheduled maintenance compared to their etec owner friends. Etecs are also toasting them when running side by side. The only bad rap I hear on etec is from non etec owners who have limited exposure to people who use them.

bp

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

.............. I work pt in a marine place ............ What I see on boats and hear from customers in big numbers is 4 strokes getting a seriously bad rap for high maintenance and the downtime to do it. Owners choke at the cost of regular scheduled maintenance compared to their etec owner friends.......... Etecs are also toasting them when running side by side. The only bad rap I hear on etec is from non etec owners who have limited exposure to people who use them.
bp

An oil change and a valve adjustment every couple of years and SOME 4strokes have timing belts are the only "extra" maintenance over a 2stroke.

Enlighten me please, just how hard are you marine shops hitting your customers? The oil/filter change is a 20 minute affair. It is very, very, very easy.
These 4strokes are very, very, very easy to do maintenance on. A 4cylinder 4stroke, oil/filter change and a valve adjustment can be done by an average mechanic in under 2 hours.
Remember that a 2stroke isn't maintenance free and a 4stroke valve adjustment isn't needed that often.

I don't believe a bad rap is justified for any of the current top competitive marine engine manufactures 2 or 4stroke.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

I was going to save the data in the charts below and provide a very detailed analysis later but since it came up here, I'll share it. The reason I wanted to wait was because I wanted to add fuel flow and performance data for my Alumacraft Navigator 165CS which is idential to the boats in the charts below with the exception it's powered by 75 HP Merc carbed two-stroke. Very often discussions on iBoats forums turns to fuel "efficiency". It must be understood that fuel "efficiency" only applies when one compares various engines at the same RPM. Fuel "economy" measures how far one goes on a gallon of fuel. look at it this way -- a 2 Liter four cylinder engine should be more efficient than a 7 liter V8. However, depending on what vehicle those engines are installed in, efficiency is no longer a term that means anything. I happen to know a 7 liter Corvette V8 will get 28 MPG on a good day. I doubt that 2 liter engine will do that in the same car. It simply must exert most of its power just to move it while the 7 liter engine will be loafing. The three charts are from two sources. The Yamaha charts are from the Yamaha Performance Test Web site. The E-tec chart is from the Alumacraft Performance Test web site. The 70 HP Yamaha test used a PolarCraft Kodiak 165CS because they did not test that engine on the Alumacraft Navigator 165CS. I chose that boat because it is very similar in size and weight as the Navigator. Now then -- If one looks at the GPH (gallons/hr) column at the same RPM for each engine you will see that a four stroke is a fuel sipper in comparison which is where the 4-stroke advocates tout "fuel efficiency". For heavens sake it should be more fuel "efficient" because it makes power only on every other revolution. So what you say. Ignore the G/hr and go to the MPG column for virtually any SPEED (MPH). You will then see that even the carbed 70 Yamaha gets better "fuel economy" than the four-stroke and E-tec is likewise more "economical". How can this be. Look at the RPM vs SPEED for these engines. The E-Tec and 70 Yamaha engines turn significantly lower RPM to achieve the same speed as the four-stroke. Lower RPM results in better fuel economy -- just like it does on your car. Isn't it amazing that at wide open throttle all of these engines burn almost precisely 10% of their rated horsepower regardless of technology. I know this to be a fact as I have a Navman 2100 on my boat and my engine also burns exactly 7.5 G/hr at WOT. So the point here, is to understand the numbers that manufacturers and dealers thow them at you. I've contended for years that you might as well run wide open as the difference in the TOTAL amount of fuel burned over a given distance is nearly the same as if you cruised at say 1/2 or 2/3 throttle. The charts also show that. Why is this? Consider a 40 mile trip. If you run at 40 MPH it would take an hour. At 20 MPH it would take 2 hours so you are running twice as long. The difference in dollars and gallons is very small. Obviously if speed is not a factor on a trip, that argument is moot. Using any of the charts and say a 50 mile trip, at 26 MPH the Yammy 4S would take a tick under two hours at 4500 RPM/26 MPH and it would therefore require a little over 11 gallons of fuel. Do the same for all of the other two and you will see the fuel use will be nearly the same. Now run wide open. The E-tec would make the trip in 1 hr - 18 min. It would burn 9.76 gallons of fuel. The 70 Yammy two stroke would make the trip in the exact same time and burn the identical amount of fuel (about 1/10 gallon less). The 4-stroke would take almost an hour and a half to make the trip and it would burn 10.78 gallons of fuel (almost a gallon more than the E-tech and the Yamaha 2S). In August I will add data from my own fuel monitor and add it to these. Just a reminder -- these are Yamaha and Alumacraft numbers, and not just some charts I threw together. You can see them for any boat they have tested on the respective web sites.

I luv ya Silvertip!! You have taught me more then any other single poster on iboats, (and I have learned a bunch from the rest too)!! Thank you for sharing your vast and very impressive wisdom!!! This should be read by all!! JR

 

[Silvertip]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

A 20 minute job is not a 20 minute job. The clock starts ticking the minute they hook up to your rig to move it into the shop. The very fact you showed up will cost you a minimum of 1 hour labor. Pointing out that these services are "simple" may be a true statement for gearheads. How many of your neighbors do their own oil changes on their cars? If valves in cars required adjusting these days, how many would do it themselves. I agree that it is generally very simple. But simple tasks to one person does not make it simple to others. Some folks simply don't want to be bothered so they let the "professionals" do it. They tolerate the cost and inconvenience. It's a fact of life. Others on a limited budget fall into the same category but when presented with the bill, they nearly faint. Answer this -- why is it four stroke outboard engine oil is $3.84 a quart at WalMart? Seems to me thats a rip! If the four stroke makers wanted low maintenance, why didn't they incorporate hydraulic lifters in their engines? Presto -- no more valve adjustment. As for the amatuer doing a timing belt replacement, about 50% (perhaps more) would attempt the job without a service manual and then simply slip the belt on not understanding the relationship between camshaft and crankshaft. On an interference engine that little slip will cost and engine due to valve/piston collision.

 

[tommays]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

All the brands have a huge problem even finding people qualified to repair ANY of the new motors

Yamaha is up to 61 master techs everybody else kinda of keeps the qualified service personal problem a secret


Tommays

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

A 20 minute job is not a 20 minute job. The clock starts ticking the minute they hook up to your rig to move it into the shop. The very fact you showed up will cost you a minimum of 1 hour labor. Pointing out that these services are "simple" may be a true statement for gearheads. How many of your neighbors do their own oil changes on their cars? If valves in cars required adjusting these days, how many would do it themselves. I agree that it is generally very simple. But simple tasks to one person does not make it simple to others. Some folks simply don't want to be bothered so they let the "professionals" do it. They tolerate the cost and inconvenience. It's a fact of life. Others on a limited budget fall into the same category but when presented with the bill, they nearly faint. Answer this -- why is it four stroke outboard engine oil is $3.84 a quart at WalMart? Seems to me thats a rip! If the four stroke makers wanted low maintenance, why didn't they incorporate hydraulic lifters in their engines? Presto -- no more valve adjustment. As for the amatuer doing a timing belt replacement, about 50% (perhaps more) would attempt the job without a service manual and then simply slip the belt on not understanding the relationship between camshaft and crankshaft. On an interference engine that little slip will cost and engine due to valve/piston collision.

I do understand what you're saying here and understand the game more then you know.
But the point is you're making it sound like the extra maintenance is overwhelming, it isn't, and it's becoming less as each new model comes out.
If a marine dealer wants to charge more then it's worth, it isn't a fault of the 4stroke. That same dealer will find a way to charge more on a 2stroke service just as fast.
Again, performing maintenance on a typical 4stroke outboard is easy. ANY COMPETENT mechanic can do it.
Seriously, you brought up maintenance as being a serious issue with 4stroke.
It isn't serious to those that bought a pride and joytoy. It certainly isn't a serious issue to the marina. It isn't serious to those that will pay the price. It isn't serious to those that will do it at home. It isn't serious to those that will have Arny's pit stop do it.

It only seems to be a big deal to 2stroke owners.

There are several brands of 4strokes that don't have timing belts. There are several brands of 4strokes that don't require changing the oil filter every oil change. There are several brands of 4strokes that are improving the valve train to extend maintenance intervals. The major players in this are proactively improving all the time.

This whole 4stroke/2stroke thing has lost some serious perspective.

 

[Bigjohn1]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

Husker - Here's the bottom line on this fuel economy and relibility debate rangling back and forth.

Both of the engine you mention get outstanding fuel economy so don't make your choice based on that because it's a wash on economy. The E-tec will move you a bit faster and will have better low-end power. If that is not a primary concern of yours though, buy the one with the better price or the one who has the better dealer support in your particular locale.

One is not clearly "better" than the other

 

[alexedit]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

I totally agree with big john. If i was you, I would buy the one with the better warranty and better dealer support. A new engine won't be develop any problems for at least 3 to 4 years if maintained right

 

[BillP]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

I do understand what you're saying here and understand the game more then you know.
But the point is you're making it sound like the extra maintenance is overwhelming, it isn't, and it's becoming less as each new model comes out.
If a marine dealer wants to charge more then it's worth, it isn't a fault of the 4stroke. That same dealer will find a way to charge more on a 2stroke service just as fast.
Again, performing maintenance on a typical 4stroke outboard is easy. ANY COMPETENT mechanic can do it.
Seriously, you brought up maintenance as being a serious issue with 4stroke.
It isn't serious to those that bought a pride and joytoy. It certainly isn't a serious issue to the marina. It isn't serious to those that will pay the price. It isn't serious to those that will do it at home. It isn't serious to those that will have Arny's pit stop do it.

It only seems to be a big deal to 2stroke owners.

There are several brands of 4strokes that don't have timing belts. There are several brands of 4strokes that don't require changing the oil filter every oil change. There are several brands of 4strokes that are improving the valve train to extend maintenance intervals. The major players in this are proactively improving all the time.

This whole 4stroke/2stroke thing has lost some serious perspective.

Perspective changes with experience too. Your implication is that only 2 stroke owners complain about 4 strokes? Where I live its 4 stroke owners complaining about 4 strokes more than 2 stroke owners complaining. Most 4 stroke owners going etec know both sides of the story and have owned 2 strokes. 200-400hrs a yr is common on their rigs and most have yrs of boating experience. It isn't small numbers of them talking this way. I've also got 10+ yrs running my 4 stroke and more with 2 strokes...and agree with them. Etecs are selling in large numbers to those with 4s experience already under their belt...it isn't the clueless who is buying etec in big numbers.

 

[olm]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

As an E-tec Owner that sees alot of boats in the florida keys. It comes down to this. Marketing!! yammaha owns boat companys so does Merc. therfore more boat will get those motors. Also factor in the whole Omc Debocle and the fact that people are uninformend about two strokes and that's why righ now the four stroke have an edge. This is changing, when I first repowered with my e- tec's we saw very few E-tec motors now I see quite a few more everytime I go out. Mainly on re-regged boats, older boats with new power, this tells me when the individual owner has to drop the big bucks he does his homework and buys the 2 stroke. Most dealer rigged boats are Yammaha & Merc. Food for thought.

FYI e-tecs are not the second comming & they do fail, they did on me due to rigging issues. It is how the company deals with the failure when it happens. In that respect they are tops, broke on sunday new motor installed by the next weekend even though it was a dealer screwup.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

Perspective changes with experience too. Your implication is that only 2 stroke owners complain about 4 strokes? Where I live its 4 stroke owners complaining about 4 strokes more than 2 stroke owners complaining. Most 4 stroke owners going etec know both sides of the story and have owned 2 strokes. 200-400hrs a yr is common on their rigs and most have yrs of boating experience. It isn't small numbers of them talking this way. I've also got 10+ yrs running my 4 stroke and more with 2 strokes...and agree with them. Etecs are selling in large numbers to those with 4s experience already under their belt...it isn't the clueless who is buying etec in big numbers.

I respect what you're saying. And like I've said before I'm not and haven't bashed E-tec. From everything I've read the E-tec is pretty awesome.
I experience and hear the same about the 4strokes.

However, there is quite a bit of implication about one and the other that doesn't seem to have much basis other then emotion and pride.

Take your own post for example where you imply there are substantial numbers of dissatified 4stroke owners repowering to E-tec. I'm super curious why? What are the problems? Is it just the maintenance issue? And if it is, is it a local issue where the marina is gouging on simple proceedures?
I don't find a clue of the dissatisfaction in the 4stroke forums here on iboats.
I don't find a clue of it in other boating sites. And I don't get a clue of it at all at any of the local boat ramps or marinas.
And also in contrast is JB's post where at LOTW the 4stroke isn't losing affection with commercial users.
I monitor the Honda forum pretty thouroughly, I've not seen one complaint of the maintenance, cost or burden.

Certainly you can see my point where it almost always gets down to 10 pounds wieght difference, 3 seconds of hole shot, a gallon of fuel a day and a valve adjustment a year or two.

Then the 4/2stroke debate gets stranger.
Is a 1977 Mercury better then a 2007 Suzuki? The E-tec gets raves but is a new Mercury better then the E-tec? If not is an Optimax better then a Honda or Suzuki?

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Cricket Too]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

Skinnywater......I truly believe that this is a useless and never ending, pointless argument, but I completely see what your saying, and maybe the maintenance isn't a big deal at all to people like us here on this forum, and in a lot of cases it probably isn't even a factor, but it is still there and it needs to be done by somebody, and the simple fact is, that it is more than needs to be done to a 2 stroke, not that a 2 stroke doesn't need anything, just not as much.

If I had a 4 stroke, I would do the oil changes and whatever else it needed myself, adjust the valves...whatever, but I can and I'd probably enjoy it, if it didn't interfere with my fishing season.

But for someone who doesn't even know how an engine works, besides you turn the key to the right it runs, you turn it to the left it stops.....there's no way they're doing it themselves. And that's condsidering they even know it has to be done.

Lets say you run both for 100 hours, and neither had a thing done to them, but the 2 stroke has been pulling through clean fresh oil for this 100 hrs, and the 4 stroke has been circulating old, dirty oil through and old filter, and maybe the valves are a little out of adjustment....which is gonna suffer more?

Most people won't bring their engine in, unless it's broken and needs to be fixed, so at that point which technology would be worse off having nothing doen to it?

Personally I have my boat in the water for 8 months out of the year, and I don't want to have to go through the trouble of pulling it out for anything unless absolutely neccesary, meaning a problem that makes me do it, which will happen to either technology.

So I don't want anything coming up, where I have to go through the hassle of getting my boat out of the water, because I put more hours than I thought on it in the first 4 months in the water and now I need to change the oil or check my valves, and I really don't want to hang over the engine in the water, and lose my tools in the canal. A 2 stroke won't make me do that.

Just the way I look at it, anything more that needs to be done, to me is still more, and I'd rather be using it than doing that. If it's sitting in my driveway all the time, it's one thing, but for me to pull it, I'm wasting a whole day and maybe a weekend, and I'd factor that into the cost of anything I bought.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: e-tec or 4 stroke.

Cricket2, nice post.

"I'd factor that into the cost of anything I bought."

Certainly most of the people that bought a 4stroke factored exactly what you've pointed out.