Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

[Walt T]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

The newer Vortec era blocks (1996-up) have a SLIGHTLY shorter bore at the bottom, nearest the cam tunnel. This isn't a problem in most cases. But if a stroker crank is being considered, this should be looked into to be sure there'll be no issues due to the lack of piston support at BDC.

I really don't know where or how this got started but for all the strokers I've built and others have built, all the articles online and in print rags I have read, all the blocks I've sent to machine shops never ONCE have I had an issue with this. Doesn't hurt to check I guess. If it were indeed a problem then no doubt every stroker builder would know and it would be all over the Net by now.

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

Hey! I'm in the midst of installing my crank! Just got everything back from the machine shop.

Question: my #1 journal oil clearance is close to .003 book says max is .002, machine shop is trying to tell me that it's good, that I need the extra clearance - I'm using plastiguage so I can't be precise until I can get a bore gauge on it.

Basically all my journals are close to three thou. But #1 I'm concerned about. Thinking of getting .001+ main bearings and bring them all to .002 thou.

Suggestions?

So what's your thoughts?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

0.0025 - 0.0028 on the mains, 0.0020-0.0025 on the rods

so just under 3 on your mains is good.

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

0.0025 - 0.0028 on the mains, 0.0020-0.0025 on the rods

so just under 3 on your mains is good.

Thanks Scott,

every racing build I've read about states close to .003 on mains, but I'm concerned that after initial break-in I'm going to be outside of .003

Honestly just eye-balling it with plastiguage I'm dead on .0028. Seems to be the "thing" to do reading on the net about it.

I'm confused that all manuals state a tighter clearance for #1 journal of .002 max. Any particular reason the norm is outside of that?

Also on my Keith black pistons my top ring gap was set at .032. (Ring gap factor of .008 x bore 4.030). Then the instructions state use a min of .004 factor for the second ring (.016). The shop set mine at .032 for the second ring as well. Any thing negative that could come from that? I'm thinking increased leakage but I don't believe that to be detrimental to my build.

Thanks!

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

every racing build I've read about states close to .003 on mains, but I'm concerned that after initial break-in I'm going to be outside of .003

Remember, your building a boat motor, not a racing motor.

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

Exactly why I asked my question. why not set to within tolerance in accordance with manual #24? It states max at .002 for #1 journal.

Your suggestion was in line with all the racing SBC I've been reading about. Trying to figure out why go outside the tolerances stated in the manual. My machine shop seemed offended. I asked anyway and still didn't get a proper answer.

Basically how I'm understanding it - go to three thou across the board to decrease chance of spinning a bearing at the expense of lower oil pressure and increased windage.

I'm hoping not to offend anyone much less you Scott, just trying to learn as much as I can.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

yes, increasing the tolerance will lower oil pressure slightly and increase windage slightly. then again, a $35 melling oil pump will bring the pressure back up.

your local machine shop has been in business for a long while. you did trust them enough to start doing business with them. work with them when you have questions and you shouldnt offend them.

No offense taken.

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

yes, increasing the tolerance will lower oil pressure slightly and increase windage slightly. then again, a $35 melling oil pump will bring the pressure back up.

your local machine shop has been in business for a long while. you did trust them enough to start doing business with them. work with them when you have questions and you shouldnt offend them.

No offense taken.

Scott,

Actually he's the only one in town. I sent him a brand new 355 block from summit to cut my deck and line hone my block due to installing studs. For the most part he done a good job. Deck is exactly 9.004 (.004 piston in the hole as I wanted). However without asking me he opened all my mains to get .003 oil clearance across the board.

He also made a mistake he cut my second piston ring to .032 on 4 and messed up the other 4, he cut those to almost .045 - guess he accidentally switched feeler gauges and didn't catch it. I did catch it however. I read the literature from Keith black and basically it states you don't need to cut the second rings, just make sure to set them a min of .016 (factor of .004 x bore min). I did not want him to cut my rings but he did without asking me as well. Not a big deal, after mocking up my block and checking deck height I just asked for another set of cast rings. I'm going to open them up to .032 as well. He suggested it for cheap insurance.

Any thoughts on that?

Either way, I'm just learning the trade a bit, but in my line of work the manual has final say. But I do understand field experience, which of course I do not have.


That's why I'm asking about oil clearances set to .003, either way it was my decision not his. There is no warranty from him, he's not installing or building this engine. So it makes me upset that the decision was taken away from me.

So I'm trying to understand the reason for him setting it this way as matter of fact - only his way.

I feel as if the manual states .0022 max oil clearance on #1 journal then there was a reason. We're talking stock SBC, Not that he's not correct in his understanding, but I need to understand it as well. Preferably prior to being set.

Either way I'm moaning and being a school girl, but it's my stuff - not his. LOL

So unless I get a good feeling about being set at .003 clearance, I'm going to put in .001 undersized bearings in #1 for .002 and half shell the remainders for .0025. Within tolerances stated in the manual, simply because that's what the manual states. Beyond that I have no reason to!

Basically what do I gain from higher clearance and what impacts could I expect remaining at .003? Better to stay or bring it into tolerance. Man it sucks to be OCD about tolerances.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

I see you are betwixt, & between, I feel your pain, pistons, & rings, expand,,, but not cranks, or rods. I never heard of shimming a crank bearing to fit? Don't know if it's ever been done? Or the consequences? But, wouldn't that raise the rectangular guide notch on the bearing too high for the cap?

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

MikDee,

Yes apparently it's common to use half-shells of same manufacture / same series of bearing to "customize" oil clearances. Racers do it often. I'm not going to get into the conversation of weather it's acceptable practice or not - too many arguments for / against it. But I'll do it if I need to.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

MikDee,

Yes apparently it's common to use half-shells of same manufacture / same series of bearing to "customize" oil clearances. Racers do it often. I'm not going to get into the conversation of weather it's acceptable practice or not - too many arguments for / against it. But I'll do it if I need to.

If it's been shown to work, then do it if need be. If it was my build, I'd be just as OCD, as you,,, Good Luck, by the way!

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

MikDee,

Yes apparently it's common to use half-shells of same manufacture / same series of bearing to "customize" oil clearances. Racers do it often................................... I'm not going to get into the conversation of weather it's acceptable practice or not - too many arguments for / against it............................................................. But I'll do it if I need to.

That spoke volumes....there are many opinion's on how to approach a build and if you take a step back and look at what there saying it usually revolve's around..... high rpm.....high compression...maxium air fuel delivery and aggressive timing. Some of the stratragey's are so complex it's mind numbing....Keep in mind your building a engine where WOT will be what...5000 rpm and a mild compression ratio.

The marine engine is a bit different from a auto engine in the fact that they marine engine's run a hotter than normal rotating assy due to high loads and a colder than normal block what a combination..... tight tolerance's beyond spec... i would stick with marine std's and not automotive std's

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

If this helps (sorry for the bad cut-n-paste) from the 2001 GM powertrain Industrial and Marine motor specifications

Engine Mechanical Specifications (5.7 L) (cont’d)
Application
Specification
Metric English
Camshaft
End Play 0.05–0.30 mm 0.002–0.012 in
Journal Diameter 47.440–47.490 mm 1.8677–1.8697 in
Journal Diameter Out-of-Round 0.025 mm – Maximum 0.0010 in – Maximum
Lobe Lift – Exhaust 7.20–7.30 mm 0.283–0.287 in
Lobe Lift – Intake 6.97–7.07 mm 0.274–0.278 in
Runout 0.065 mm – Maximum 0.0026 in – Maximum
Connecting Rod
Connecting Rod Bearing Clearance – Production 0.033–0.078 mm 0.0013–0.0031 in
Connecting Rod Bearing Clearance – Service 0.025–0.063 mm 0.0010–0.0025 in
Connecting Rod Journal Diameter 56.505–56.533 mm 2.2246–2.2257 in
Connecting Rod Journal Out-of-Round – Production 0.007 mm – Maximum 0.0003 in – Maximum
Connecting Rod Journal Out-of-Round – Service 0.025 mm – Maximum 0.0010 in – Maximum
Connecting Rod Journal Taper – Production 0.007 mm – Maximum 0.0003 in – Maximum
Connecting Rod Journal Taper – Service 0.025 mm – Maximum 0.0010 in – Maximum
Connecting Rod Side Clearance 0.15–0.61 mm 0.006–0.024 in
Crankshaft
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance – Journal #1 – Production 0.018–0.053 mm 0.0007–0.0021 in
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance – Journal #2, #3, and #4 – Production 0.030–0.068 mm 0.0012–0.0027 in
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance – Journal #5 – Production 0.020–0.060 mm 0.0008–0.0024 in
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance – Journal #1 – Service 0.025–0.051 mm 0.0010–0.0020 in
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance – Journal #2, #3, and #4 – Service 0.025–0.064 mm 0.0010–0.0025 in
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance Service – Journal #5 – Service 0.038–0.063 mm 0.0015–0.0025 in
Crankshaft End Play 0.05–0.20 mm 0.002–0.008 in
Crankshaft Journal Diameter – Journal #1 62.189–62.212 mm 2.4484–2.4493 in
Crankshaft Journal Diameter – Journal #2, #3, and #4 62.181–62.207 mm 2.4481–2.4491 in
Crankshaft Journal Diameter – Journal #5 62.185–62.207 mm 2.4482–2.4491 in
Crankshaft Journal Out-of-Round – Production 0.005 mm – Maximum 0.0002 in – Maximum
Crankshaft Journal Out-of-Round – Service 0.025 mm – Maximum 0.0010 in – Maximum
Crankshaft Journal Taper – Production 0.005 mm – Maximum 0.0002 in – Maximum
Crankshaft Journal Taper – Service 0.025 mm – Maximum 0.0010 in – Maximum
Crankshaft Runout at Rear Flange 0.038 mm 0.0015 in

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

Yes sir! I have the manual that is why I'm confused.



As stated I'm already out of the manufactures specs. I've ordered clevite 77's .001's and I'm going to bring her in tolerance. Loose in accordance with the manual.



#1. .002
#2 - #5 .0025

My rods are at .002 and everything else looks good. I'll put her together this weekend and see how it goes.

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!



Had an issue with my windage tray and ARP Studs (5601's) not wanting to cooperate.

Issue: my studs are approx 1/2 inch too short for stock sbc windage tray to mount. I've read about people cutting and bending the tray to make it fit.

Seems to be a common issue without a common explanation to the fix.

Went to a local hardware store and purchased:

5
3/8 x 24 x 1.5 inch coupling nuts.

5
3/8 x 24 x .5 inch bolts.

5
3/8 lock washers.

None were grade 8 or stainless. Bolts Needs to hold 25ftlb of torque.

I cut off the approximate distance of a standard nut from my ARP stud, About 3/8 inch with my dremel tool. (Need room for the bolts to thread into) studs are approx 1 inch for the windage tray mount.

I red locktie'd the coupling nuts to my left over ARP studs, for all five mounting points.

Then blue locktite'd my bolts through the windage tray, with lock washers.

Worked like is was made that way. No big muss or fuss.



Have the long block almost completed, haven't received my timing chain as of yet.



Getting messy! Thank goodness for cat litter to clean it up.

BTW, all clearances are set to .002 I went full .001 undersized on the mains. Good thing my machine shop opened my mains :slamforehead:

I went with sealed power A series bi-metal on the mains and clevites 77 P series on the rods.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

I don't think you need a windage tray unless you're running above 6000 RPM? It might be a hindrance to the oil below that rpm. At least that's what I've read. Check it out.

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

MikDee,

In a boat application you need one to prevent the oil slosh from the crankshaft. That's what I've read and makes sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[Bondo]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

MikDee,

In a boat application you need one to prevent the oil slosh from the crankshaft. That's what I've read and makes sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong!

Ayuh,.... Windage trays have Nothin' to do with the rpms run,....

 

[Swill008]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

Ayuh,.... Windage trays have Nothin' to do with the rpms run,....

Bondo,

Does that mean that the windage trays are necessary due to oil slosh in a water environment?

Would be best to also have an oil pan with baffles, but I think stock should be good enough.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Decided to build a 5.7 Vortec and do it right!

Bondo,

Does that mean that the windage trays are necessary due to oil slosh in a water environment?

Would be best to also have an oil pan with baffles, but I think stock should be good enough.

Ayuh,.... Nothin' wrong with a windage tray,.... or a baffled pan, but I doubt ya got clearances for both,....