Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

[rivermouse]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Do the crime=do the time........If the race hater mama does not want to leave him "behind" SHE perhaps can be jailed too...

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Working at a Sheriff's Department this garbage is seen daily. As the comments above reflect......this should not be a troll (hey ezbtr post some stuff about your boat instead).

There have been excellent comments above. 19 years old is an adult.

SO let me place this into a different prospective. Just for the sake of thinking....... an armed adult (no age, no race, no sex) commits a violent crime with a weapon (handgun, knife, chainsaw, or maybe an antique battle ax) against another adult (again -no age, no race, no sex)....... AND there is a conviction for 10 years in prison. Kudo's to the States Attorney for the follow through on the "WORK" that the law enforcement people did - good job. (The "public" has no real concept on how many people are arrested, and cases started that never make it convictions. It is one of the primary concerns of law enforcement. That is why there are so many "frequent flyers" to the judicial systems.

Now consider that situation that the "adult victim" was a close family member (Mom, Dad, Aunt, Uncle, Significant Other).....trust me.....there is no victim that will say 10 years is enough in the context of a violent crime with a weapon. The results would not have been any different is they were robbed of a $40 phone or a $3500 watch......... how about if they just robbed someone who was broke and got nothing at all.......that's not grounds to stop the process.

I am pretty confident to say that "blind justice" is just that. Take race out of the equation. Race is a trolling bait.

Ok, what the heck is a "troll"? besides the angry little dwarf monster under the bridge I saw in books as a kid? Also I received no answer regarding my question of victim reparation, just saying what was told to me guys.

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

pot and alcohol, then pistol whip someone????
Didn't have a gun so his buddy gives him one???
I fell off the hay wagon, .................but not yesterday.

No info on victim injuries.

Save your money mom, he's in the right place.

yup

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Two points
1. Mom's viewpoint on bad deeds is part of what got him there. No personal responsibility. Victim mentality
2. The more important point. Where is Dad?

One of my first thoughts, but the dad is in another country last I heard, the one they all came from many years ago(the mom and son)

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Bubba, I don't have an answer for you, but I think Kahuna hit the biggest reason on the head, Where is Dad, in this day and age it has become acceptable for young men to act out their anger on society, for one reason or another, you can run down the list of excuses,

Dad not in the home

Drugs

Mental Health

The fall of Marriage in todays society

Failure of kids to have good Morals instilled in them from Parents

The only answer we have is put them away, remove them from Society, I am ok with giving people a chance, maybe two, but never a third, this will only get worse, Last week I read a story about a 15 year old Black kid murdered on his way home 15 years ago, a cold case, and the media seemed to just gloss over the main factor, why was this kid, 15 walking home at 0200, 2 AM!! Where are the parents? What Life is this kid expected to lead when the parents are ok with him being out at 2 AM? What example did they give him and explain to me why they were not held accountable for his being out at the time and consequently his death?

I think the answer, the only answer, may be to finally hold parents accountable for their kids actions, Have you heard of this new game the Knockout game? Some call it hunting Polar Bears, where young kids go out and punch unsuspecting people trying to knock them out, you can guess the races involved and to be honest it does happen with all races, but how quickly would this stop if the kids knew that when they got caught they and their parents would get locked up?

Look I could go on and on, this situation has many factors involved that would get this thread closed in a second, but what I see in Jail, is a majority of young people that needed guidance from their parents and didn't get it. Remember that movie long ago with Keanu Reeves called Parenthood? He stated "You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming ******* be a father." To me that quote is one of the most understated accurate quotes of all time.

Mods, as always I apologize in advance if I have crossed the line...

always thought there outta be a test before procreation is possible, sad.

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

great informative responses guys, I'm still digesting all - my friends have respnded and this week, my kids will as well, all with just the facts i know as info

 

[southkogs]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

A very interesting thread to read: Hardly what Heinz was expecting probably

Guys, a lot of interesting commentary. And I think Lipp's point of parenting and moral structure in society are a much bigger point in the conversation than any of us can really get into.

One question that I am interested in hearing y'all comment on: In the absence of a positive force advocating for good behavior on the front end (Lipp's point) or time to reform the young guys/gals who've already started in the system (Bubba made a point about that in the thread somewhere), isn't the only real (effective) stop-gap option a fear of penal action for breaking the law?

Prison/Jail (I've done some work in both, and find they have many of the same problems) is NOT a deterrent. Even in one of the small town jails I've seen, it's just a revolving door. They almost don't need to change bed sheets. Sentencing is too light (very broad general statement) to make it a deterrent to go to jail, but I agree locking 'em up and throwing away the key just makes them animals and upon their release someone get's to feel their bite.

I get those points, but we can't go back and re-parent most of these people. It's too late. We may be able to do something in the future (and someone mentioned/suggested regulating child bearing, which I am in NO WAY in favor of whatever the risk), but that doesn't help the issue at hand.

Isn't a fear of enforcement of law for the law breaker about the only option for immediate impact?

That may mean a better (I don't say more frequent) use of capital punishment, but it also may mean a more penalizing incarceration (again, I don't say longer necessarily). It may mean a public means of restitution, or some layer of public expose (though, I'm not certain how good the sex offender registry has worked out). I'm not sure of details and some would certainly be a bitter pill, but really the cost of breaking the law in our society is rather minimal isn't it?

Consider that in conjunction with the amount of people sitting in the jails and the two make sense (low impact / willing to go).

(MODs I'm with Lipp - if ya' gotta' carve the post, go for it).

 

[QC]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I am enjoying this while wondering if we can keep it up without going stupid

With that said, I love Bubba's post above because I like facts to base my opinions on. I would, however, like a precise definition of "non-violent". What about drug dealers. Serious drug dealers whose little minions do the violence for him to keep his hands clean? Also, it is important to note, that some societies execute drug dealers and users alike, so of course their prison population would be lower These comments are with no research, but all the facts are important too.

 

[rbh]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Some of the things that people get fined for up here you do serious jail time in the US.
Has big business taken over the US penal system to the point where whatever you did your doing time in jail?

Every prisoner costs the tax payer big bucks over the course of their stay.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

In some of the countries I have been in I find their penal system interesting. The stays are not long, and they do involve family interaction ... ie, if the one incarcerated wants to eat, his family, or someone from the outside, needs to bring him his food. It is up to his family to supply clothing and necessities. So, in many ways, the family puts pressure on the person NOT to go to jail, because it becomes a burden for all. I am not saying this is the way we should go, but it is an interesting perspective in light of all that has been said.

And I am with Kogs on the parenting thing. I really don't want the justice system to say if I am a good parent or not ... that gets too personal ...

 

[QC]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Has big business taken over the US penal system to the point where whatever you did your doing time in jail?

If by that you mean privatized prisons, no. Each states system is specific and different, but I don't believe there are any that are privately managed by contract. We also have Federal prisons which differ from each states yet again, but definitely not privatized.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I'm tracking with you Bubba: And I think we could look at some other models to see. Though, when you factor in what Aspeck noted (which I would be kinda' okay with), we may find things that Americans just can't stomach.

[Here's where I start having to "check my swing" to keep forum rules]: We get kinda' stuck in our society between two things:

1) We need to penalize people for committing crimes. The penalty needs to be respective of the crime in question (no reason to turn a 12 year old into a "lifer" for snatching a stick of gum), but it also needs to effect real justice and restitution. Consider that many people who commit an act of crime that costs a life or significant personal injury can pay that penalty quicker than I can pay for a used car, we're probably off in the "cost" of our penalization somewhere. Victims deserve restitution - not for vengeance sake, but for justice sake.

2) We want to see people change for the better. While sometimes misguided, I really do think people want to rehabilitate criminals into "good" people. We want a safe and healthy society.

Where the US has seemed to goof too much (IMHO) is that we've begun to see the guilty as the victim. We so want to rehabilitate, that we don't let people experience the full weight of mistakes and bad judgement. We soften the blow, sometimes to the extreme of really believing that all of them "just need a good hug." And what that does is bring some simple economics into the picture: if the cost of committing the crime is low enough, I'm fine paying the penalty in exchange for committing the crime.

More simply stated, I'm not afraid of the cost of breaking the law.

Oddly - I find that many of the people who come to a true understanding and repentance for the crime they've committed accept the weight of punishment in a healthy way. Not necessarily happy about it, but accepting it humbly. That to me is the most rehabilitation someone can come to, and the exact type of person I'd be just fine making a neighbor of later.

Interesting reading, y'all.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

QC, I'm afraid you are mistaken. We have two in Missouri and one even "contracts" with Iowa.

Some reading... CORRECTIONS: Prison Privatization and the Prison Boom

CCA is actually located right here in Nashville. I've done some work for them in the past.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

...I'd suggest that if we stopped locking people away for non-violent crimes we would have the time and resources to concentrate on those that do deserve it … they anticipated a tax saving of over $6 million just by not arresting those people.

I can appreciate that concept (especially the financial savings) with one problem that I see looming on the don't-know-how-distant horizon: mob rule begins to dictate law. Taking your example, since everyone is willing to smoke pot even if it's illegal (because the penal expense is pretty cheap, really) then let's stop locking 'em up and just let it go. We will at some point start deciding what to make legal or illegal based on who and how many we lock up, not wether it's right or wrong / legal or illegal.

Running the argument out to the extreme, when killing becomes so rampant that it's hard to manage; by that logic we would make murder legal. I know that's extreme and not what you're suggesting, but the logic point is what's of interest to me.

Really, we don't merely have an economic problem, but also a problem of justice. Let me try to do this without closing the thread: In one sense I'd be fine not penalizing drug users like you suggest, saving the taxpayers millions of dollars. But I'd want the payoff in the back end too: no subsidies for addicts. I don't really want to trade the millions of bucks in prison for millions of bucks in housing, healthcare, food and welfare for a growing community of addicts who aren't able to care for themselves. It's just another variant of the prison, and it doesn't help anyone at all. (I don't want to leave people starving and homeless, but there's a risk of generating a largely lawless society …)

That's an easy example, others would have a different consequence of legality for finance sake (which I don't think you're suggesting).

As you said earlier, spare the rod and spoil the child. If my kid is considering doing something they shouldn't, and I've given them no reason to fear doing it … they're gonna' do it (most likely). But if I'm scary enough (in a "I love you enough to run you through a blender for doing that" healthy sort of way), I may deter them from committing the crime in the first place.

Punishing the guilty in a visibly appropriate manner has a good chance (at least historically) to discourage future offenders. Anyone wanna' steal from the market in Saudi Arabia? Not likely. That's extreme too, I understand. But force does have it's place in some situations, which is why I come back to a healthy fear of the law and penalty.

Finding the fine line is the hitch.

You mentioned one thing that stands out because I've heard / read it myself. "I find that many of the people who come to a true understanding and repentance for the crime they've committed accept the weight of punishment in a healthy way." Not to set anyone off but it is my understanding that is the goal of most sex offender programs and in states that have a good program the recidivism rate is lower for sex offenders than any other group of convicts. (Some claim less than 10% which I find amazing.) Point being, if it works for someone like a sex offender I have to believe it would work with others.

Google "David Berkowitz" - He's the Son of Sam killer from the 70's. The story is very interesting.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

^^^ I have no idea what the drug culture is going to do. I know what people tend to do, and generally it ain't the healthy responsible things. Ultimately, you're right, it'll take time to see.

All I am saying is that when nearly 3/4 of prisoners are there for non-violent crimes it's way, way out of control and takes funds needed to deal with the real problem cases, be that prison or something else.

Fair 'nuff, and I can let it sit with that. The conversation just had my curiosity piqued.

Good discussion. Thank you.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Bubba, I don't buy into your legalizing or allowing drug use. I recently completed a mental health first aid class and the things we were instructed just flied in the face of "pot being a harmless drug." First, any drug effects the pleasure center of the brain. The pleasure center affects the cortex, in effect deregulating it. The cortex of the brain stores information about socially acceptable behavior. In other words, when using any drug (including alcohol) our stop and go reflex doesn't work properly.

Also, pot smoking, and any mind altering drug, gives the user a greater risk of amotivational syndrome. So, by sitting back and legalizing, because it will save tax dollars, leads to a lack of productivity and a next generation that doesn't live up to their potential.

Then, you look at it generationally. If grandparents are users, there is a 30% greater chance grand children will be users. If parents are users, there is a 50% greater chance for children. That stat works for drugs and alcohol.

so, how do you put an economic benefit to potential and lack of recognition of socially acceptable behavior?

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

The pot smoking debate is pretty much a non-debate and is dieing a well deserved death as more and more people start to understand that it apparently is not the big bad boogie man that it was made out to be.
The line often drawn between pot smoking on a recreational level and hard drug use and heavy drug culture is like assuming that everyone who buys a case of beer or a bottle of wine...is well on their way to being a homeless 'rummy', which apparently most of us are not.
Most people seem to be able to control and moderate their behavior and their usage of these 2 choices (Pot and Alcohol) and I'm pretty sure that 1/2 of the forum members here have tried or used pot at some time to no adverse long term affects and have more than likely grown out of marijuana use more so than alcohol use.
The drug culture...such as the statement implies....also includes (or clearly should include) the alcohol culture. Whenever you put something in your body to change your behavior your complicit....whether you drink it or smoke it.
That said, I think we shall see some positive changes over the next 10 years and the 'war on drugs' will evolve to drop marijuana pretty much off the list and it appears some States are already starting to understand this....and I applaud it myself.
Good discussion guys....very interesting stuff.
All Good
BP

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Bubba, I don't buy into your legalizing or allowing drug use. I recently completed a mental health first aid class and the things we were instructed just flied in the face of "pot being a harmless drug." First, any drug effects the pleasure center of the brain. The pleasure center affects the cortex, in effect deregulating it. The cortex of the brain stores information about socially acceptable behavior. In other words, when using any drug (including alcohol) our stop and go reflex doesn't work properly.

Also, pot smoking, and any mind altering drug, gives the user a greater risk of amotivational syndrome. So, by sitting back and legalizing, because it will save tax dollars, leads to a lack of productivity and a next generation that doesn't live up to their potential.

Then, you look at it generationally. If grandparents are users, there is a 30% greater chance grand children will be users. If parents are users, there is a 50% greater chance for children. That stat works for drugs and alcohol.

so, how do you put an economic benefit to potential and lack of recognition of socially acceptable behavior?

I'm with 'Speck, I don't/wont buy into it either. Save tax dollars, on the front end. Make the state(s) a bunch of money by taxing the sales, no doubt. Combine the 2 and the state(s) will make a bucket full of money, which doesn't make it right.

Really, we don't merely have an economic problem, but also a problem of justice. Let me try to do this without closing the thread: In one sense I'd be fine not penalizing drug users like you suggest, saving the taxpayers millions of dollars. But I'd want the payoff in the back end too: no subsidies for addicts. I don't really want to trade the millions of bucks in prison for millions of bucks in housing, healthcare, food and welfare for a growing community of addicts who aren't able to care for themselves. It's just another variant of the prison, and it doesn't help anyone at all. (I don't want to leave people starving and homeless, but there's a risk of generating a largely lawless society …)

I agree about the back end because that's exactly what will happen.... All we'll be doing is redirecting taxpayer money. No, not everyone will become and addict. But, enough will to put a hurt on the taxpayer.

I can see it already, cannabis lounges just like they have for e-cigs.

In a way, I hope the Colorado experiment is a complete failure so other states don't follow suit. Once you legalize something it's tough to undo. Remember prohibition?

 

[rbh]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I think that is the point Wimusky, when alcohol was band during your prohibition days it opened up an avenues for gangs and organizations to fill the void.
Prohibition was not a majority vote when it came into effect, but pandered to a few.
The same can be said about marijuanas prohibition, this was also put into place about the same time.

The only difference is that there are more consumers of alcohol than marijuana and the law was changed.

Both items are an intoxicant and so should be sold as controlled substances.

(Now that opens up the pandoras box to what needs to be controlled sugar, salt, fat, big gulps of pop, deep fried whatever)

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Understand RBH. I still don't think we need to legalize something just because the void will be filled by someone. Granted, the taxpayers are spending big bucks due to the negative effects of alcohol. We just don't need to legalize something else and add to the problem. Kinda like, they're doing it anyway so why not legalize it. Nah........ Alcohol we can't do anything about, cannabis we can...