Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Bob_VT

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

My questions/replies were - what reparations have been made to the victim?, if the police had caught them in the act, they could very well have been shot dead and rightfully so and to pull the "race card" - ethnicity has no bearing on anything whatsoever, is a complete knee jerk reaction - and NOT a pertinent comment/thought......just something/anything other to blame it on...

P.S. Don't know if there were prior offenses

Victims assistance and repayment can be set by a Judge (Normally a States Attorneys office employs a "Victim Advocate" ta assist)....... the Judge can award a billion dollars ......... will the victim ever see it???? Normally a criminal does not have the financial ability to pay anything. I highly doubt the victim will receive anything but the paper the court documents are written on. Now there are programs in place where victims can be notified if the prisoner is ever moved, pending a parole hearing or released. Here in VT my wife has an "app" for that on her iphone.
 

aspeck

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Our church was robbed about 3 years ago. The criminal was to make restitution. We have not seen a single penny. Just talked with the victims advocate who told me he has paid $40 to date and the court fees and fines of $10,000+ need to be paid before we see anything. In short, don't hold your breath, cause you won't get reimbursed.
 

captmello

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Here's another cell phone beating. Right in a busy coffee shop.

Suspects had cased Mall of America Starbucks before beating Mark Andrew | MPLS. | StarTribune.com

My daughter witnessed another theft in a coffee shop a few weeks back. Thieves walk into the shop, walk over to another patron, swipe a laptop right out from under the persons fingers and bolt out the door. Could have just as easily been my daughters laptop. Now she won't return to that establishment, ever. So, the business suffers, the victim suffers and the cycle continues.
 

hungupthespikes

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

pot and alcohol, then pistol whip someone????
Didn't have a gun so his buddy gives him one???
I fell off the hay wagon, .................but not yesterday.

No info on victim injuries.

Save your money mom, he's in the right place.
 

LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I like the term blind justice, but that just isn't the case, I don't claim to be an all knowing type of guy and even though I am in Law Enforcement, I don't understand it completely.

You have this case ezbtr has provided us, I'm guessing he has priors due to the sentence, I may be wrong and I don't know the area but that is my guess.

Here is one case, I deal with, young person, first offense, this person drove a vehicle and killed a married father of 1 child, then ran and was arrested roughly 8 hours later so no BAC. 1 year in Jail, probation, restitution and community service.

Yeah, I was..ok I still am a little irritated by the sentence, but I am not the judge, and to be honest I am thankful that I am not, I deal with this young hispanic lady regularly and sometimes I need to remind her of why she is in jail and the incredible chance the Judge has given her to rebuild her life once she gets out, Judges can be incredibly hard, but they can be very generous as well, its the criminals that decide what they want out of life.
 

foodfisher

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

There has to be some kind of deterent. IMHO, intent was evil and required a max sentence.
 

kahuna123

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Two points
1. Mom's viewpoint on bad deeds is part of what got him there. No personal responsibility. Victim mentality
2. The more important point. Where is Dad?
 

LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Bubba, I don't have an answer for you, but I think Kahuna hit the biggest reason on the head, Where is Dad, in this day and age it has become acceptable for young men to act out their anger on society, for one reason or another, you can run down the list of excuses,

Dad not in the home

Drugs

Mental Health

The fall of Marriage in todays society

Failure of kids to have good Morals instilled in them from Parents

The only answer we have is put them away, remove them from Society, I am ok with giving people a chance, maybe two, but never a third, this will only get worse, Last week I read a story about a 15 year old Black kid murdered on his way home 15 years ago, a cold case, and the media seemed to just gloss over the main factor, why was this kid, 15 walking home at 0200, 2 AM!! Where are the parents? What Life is this kid expected to lead when the parents are ok with him being out at 2 AM? What example did they give him and explain to me why they were not held accountable for his being out at the time and consequently his death?

I think the answer, the only answer, may be to finally hold parents accountable for their kids actions, Have you heard of this new game the Knockout game? Some call it hunting Polar Bears, where young kids go out and punch unsuspecting people trying to knock them out, you can guess the races involved and to be honest it does happen with all races, but how quickly would this stop if the kids knew that when they got caught they and their parents would get locked up?

Look I could go on and on, this situation has many factors involved that would get this thread closed in a second, but what I see in Jail, is a majority of young people that needed guidance from their parents and didn't get it. Remember that movie long ago with Keanu Reeves called Parenthood? He stated "You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming ******* be a father." To me that quote is one of the most understated accurate quotes of all time.

Mods, as always I apologize in advance if I have crossed the line...
 
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LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Also Bubba you are right on target, Jail and Prison do a couple of things effectively, Keep criminals away from Society and make Criminals Harder, I see it every day, the point where an inmate knows he is going to DOC(Prison) he eats everything he can, he begins "Bulking up" working out, we don't provide weights in our Jail, it doesn't matter, they work out constantly and you see them transform before your eyes. We don't have any issues with inmates assaulting Deputies and never really have and I don't know why, maybe its that we treat everyone with respect, who knows, but I agree with you that Jail and then prison make men and women, Harder, and then what do you expect to happen? We provide programs to help inmates cope and possibly be successful on the outside world, but all the while those very same inmates are building themselves up for survival in Prison, once they are in Prison it is a race war, no other way to say it, different races will and can work with each other doing the jobs that are available in Prison, but it ends there. Again I don't want to get this thread locked but reality in Prison is that Race rules, nothing else matters, there is usually a small contingent of inmates that stand on the sidelines and want nothing to do with the goings on but they are normally older inmates that are just shells of their former selves.

Then you have to consider the reality that we do not know how to deal with this countries Mental Health inmates, we do not have enough mental health institutions, so the answer is holding them in Jail until there is room in an institution for them to receive treatment and then stand trial for the crimes that they most of the time have no ability to comprehend. We have studies that say our Mental Health capacity will triple in the next decade or so and are now building a special Pod to deal with this, Mental Health inmates currently account for 10%-20% of our inmates (in my Jail where I work) depending on the week, their crimes are normally trivial minor offenses but sometimes they scare the hell out of people and then you have those that fail to resist their delusions and hurt people. We medicate these people with drugs that are freaking scary, the side effects can be as scary as the symptoms they treat, no kidding!

I wish I had the answer, I really do, but that's why I say that they need to be put away, it's the best answer we have, But I am certainly open for ideas.

Anyway I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say, for me its time to take a shower and head inside the jail. Everyone be safe, Mods thanks for all you do.
 
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Bigprairie1

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Bubba, both you and Lipp brought up some excellent well thought out comments here....has me thinking on it as well.
I think as far as the crime bit goes....the biggest change to that trend is very simple. Its education, which speaks very much to your point Bubba about the 3 r's.
If you educate people they do not require crime to get by and they will or can generally rise out of poverty which is easily what causes most crime at the levels we are discussing.
They then have choices and opportunities that simply pay and payback way better...and I think most of know this by virtue of our own lives and results.
Get your poor educated and your crime will generally plummet....very simple and statistically accurate. Its a great investment.
As for the teenagers who have de-railed like this guy....much harder to fix now at the age he is at.
He is clearly a victim or a product of a bad upbringing and a parent who is not doing their job....and he certainly isn't the first.
Unfortunately a lot of what masquerades as parenting these days is/was born out of the 'self-esteem' movement of the 80's....hence the entitled generation is at hand now. The others who grew around it but didn't have the entitled or advantaged side...have it even worse.
Excellent discussion so far guys....some very interesting points being made here, hopefully we can keep it interesting and away from the 'locked line'.
all Good
BP:)
 

Bigprairie1

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

...heres something interesting about the Military approach to training people that I find interesting, if not humourous.
Some of the members have seen their sons (and daughters) enter the military or marines as teenagers or very young adults just out of high school. I think this is great in many respects and I always enjoy the very accurate and true comments about how they will return in 6-8 months as substantially more respectful and responsible young men and women and I believe this to be very true.
The humorous part of it is the backstory on how the military turns these young people around in short order....sort of the anti-thesis of modern parenting. Not a lot of individual feel good 'tummy rubbing' involved in the process I think:lol:
It would be really entertaining to see a parenting book published by the military to show what actually works in turning out responsible, respectful young people....probably quite a contrast to most parenting books and methods currently in circulation..LOL.
All Good
BP
 

LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I just stopped by real quick and read the comments I don't have a whole bunch of time so let me head this one off before it goes that direction since I think its headed that way...

We (our country) used to give young men the option of Jail or the military, that has since ended and let me tell you why, it was successful but it had a horrible consequence that many do not know about, yes they served our country well, but in the end when they left the military they went home and some fell into the same bad habits that got themselves into the same trouble they were in in the first place, now we had well trained criminals, so the practice was stopped immediately.

Anyway I'm off to work, great discussion guys! Bubba you have great ideas, please don't hesitate I'm open on all sides, I'm under no delusions that this current strategy is working for the long term.
 

aspeck

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

What do you suggest, Bubba, we treat them like royalty and then they will never do it again? Trying to understand your thought process on this ...
 

Bigprairie1

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Yeah Art, I think what Bubba is getting at is that the penal system is broken and its not doing what its supposed to do and it isn't getting better and I don't have the answer for it any more than anyone else either.
However, the way I see it is that its sort of like deciding to store garbage, manure, etc in the room next door hoping it will improve rather than learning to compost it so it can be reused in a more useful way...LOL. As funny as that may sounds its the way I think of it.
Getting back to the whole penal system. I think it should be once again rooted in mankinds greatest fear (which has never changed over generations)...and which is what the penal system originally followed a lot more closely.
That being the fear of being forsaken by your fellow man...or to put it in laymans terms to be 'cut off' permanently from your community and your family and friends...completely and permanently. No letters, no visits, no conversation....nothing.
One thing that would be interesting is to replace all the weights, tv's and workout machines, etc....with nothing...I repeat nothing, but books and a library. So the only thing to keep you half sane during your 'stay' was to read and learn. I would something better would come of that rather than the level of person that entered...albeit in better physical shape.
Still a good thread!!....lets keep it that way!
Respectfully,
BP
 
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LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Wait wait wait......

I think calling the Penal system broke is incorrect, it was never designed to reform, you can go back to the beginning and time after time you can see the changes as man (it doesn't matter what country) has tried to modify the system to include some fashion of reform or criminal recovery, anything to get criminals to change their ways and become productive citizens on the outside and it has had limited success, you can add to the situation that our Sheriff is in charge of our Jails, he is up for election every 4 years, and if things like a criminal on parole committing a serious crime happen the Sheriff is likely to pay for it with his job! Term Limits in place here in Colorado also are a real issue, elected officials can only serve two terms, so policy changes in the jail are only worth a few years, we have tried to get term limits removed for the Sheriff twice and so far been unsuccessful, but I think it is gaining traction.

You can look at one person who does not have term limits, and has had a decent success at reducing recidivism, he may make your skin crawl with his politics but he has made a lot of us think about how we do things, Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Maricopa County Arizona, but his radical changes are not something our Sheriff is comfortable doing knowing that he has an 8 year commitment TOTAL, and its tough to fault him for that. Our Sheriff is termed out next year and right now things are pretty much at a stand still policy wise since next year(2015) we get a new Sheriff, our Sheriff is a good one and he will be missed when he moves on.

What Bubba is trying to say is there has to be a better way, and this discussion is about what is that better way?

I think that reducing recidivism in our criminal system has to include some form of criminal record reduction, which it does to an extent but the reality is that any felon is going to have a difficult time getting a job with a felony on his record, misdemeanors are not something most employers worry about, but a felony is different, black and white, employers stop and throw away the application. So, what judges do is tell criminals, if you serve your time, complete this program, you can get out on this date, if you stay out of trouble until this date this charge will be removed and this parole officer will be your case worker to act as the courts agent and make sure you do what is required, if you fail you will be put back into jail and you will serve your remaining time in jail. And this works to, but it is far from 100%.

So what can we do to increase our success rate? I see many people that come into Jail and think their life is over, they cannot recover from this, its Jail the end...

They are the funniest, these are the people that have no idea how forgiving the system is, and they are also the most volatile, the highest level of suicide, the most dangerous, the first 24-48 hours is critical, but these are not what we are talking about here, these people are placed on suicide watch, checked constantly and are a huge part of what I personally do in my job, talking these people down to a level where they see things more clearly and realize they will be fine but now they have the county acting as their Father and watching them correct the mistake they have made, and then they move on in their life, but they almost never come back probably in 90% range.

But we are talking about the other people who do not get the message, What is it going to take to get these people to see the error in their ways and move on in productive lives?

I handle four sub-pods in the SMU Pod, I have an Intake Pod, 2 Medical Pods and the SMU Pod, think of it like this, Medical is broken bones but one Medical Pod is negative pressure for those with air borne diseases such as TB, SMU (the biggest Pod I watch) is broken minds or those with Mental Health concerns, our female Pod has a similar break down except we house all women in one pod where as men we need 5 pods for capacity.


I have to Clarify one other dynamic though, I work in a Jail in the most Republican County in Colorado, one of the wealthiest counties in the Nation, our criminal element is far from what you will see in the inner city, we see everything like any jail but on a much smaller scale, it surprises my family that we have murderers in our jail(not sure why I guess they are surprised that murder happens in our county) and we house for many other counties just like they house for us, most jails operate this way, we all help each other out. We have our specialties or types of criminals we do a good job housing, and we house criminals for the Federal Government, again just like many others, our inmate to Deputy ratio is somewhere around 15/25 to 1 depending on the week which is much lower then the state average which is I think 40/50 to 1, but our number is a bit skewed because we have a lot of construction going on, we have 2 new pods under construction and one older GP(Genera Population) pod completely under renovation to make current standards(which change constantly) This construction will take a year or so for the whole jail and then our ratios will increase a bunch, housing for other counties and the Federal Government is a money maker for us but we have to meet accreditation standards or lose our certifications so these down times are part of a normal cycle.

My point is that we have a really progressive thought process to reducing recidivism and that's why I like this conversation, its always a good idea to open your eyes and ears to new ideas.

Personally I am in favor of reform, we cannot sustain the current path, but again I have no answers since I think the real answer would be a change from the top down, and I don't think the people are willing to do that right now.

I do think that Jail is the key to reform, Prison is the end game.
 
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Wind dog

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I think they should make prison "hurt" No TV, no weight room, no internet, no nothing, cept maybe hard labor and their cold cell.
 

LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

I think they should make prison "hurt" No TV, no weight room, no internet, no nothing, cept maybe hard labor and their cold cell.

We used to do that and what we found is that by caging animals without anything to do they become worse, then you have to find people to work within the zoo and that becomes tough, in the end we have Supermax where inmates have almost no interpersonal contact at all, almost everything is automated, and contact is through an intercom, video or phone, we use a limited amount of the same technology in Jail, yes it works, but if the goal is to reform criminals then we need to think of something else.
 

greenbush future

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

As a kid I was exposed to all of the elements this example did, I drank at 19 (legal then) had guns available and used them for hunting, and being a 70's child will admit I used weed too. But what I never, ever remotely considered was to cause anyone hurt, never pistol whipped, never used these "excuses" booze, guns, weed, or race as justifiable reasons to commit a crime. the concept that any of the above mentioned items contributed to this persons crimes is pathetic. they are excuses for not using common sense, and in the end, I don't have a bit of compassion for this person, and I am glad he is off the streets, because he doesn't belong in the general population. I sleep well at night knowing my tax dollars are keeping adults like this behind bars away from other good people in the civilized USA. The fact that prison doesn't fix these poor examples of humans, is not the subject, that is another topic entirely. This is punishment for being a criminal. Start another thread IMO if you care to debate what type of rehabilitation this person should have after he completes his debt to society for crimes he committed. Very black and white.
 

LippCJ7

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Re: Curious to hear comments regarding an armed robbery by a 19 yr old kid.

Yeah but I keep coming back to parenting, good parenting is the key to everything, but the fall of good moral parenting and raising of children is what I think is the key reason why we have such a problem with the prison system, fix bad parenting and I think we see a dramatic decrease in the prison system, how do you replace a parent though? It kills me, think of this, on my team I have 20 members/team mates what ever you want to call it, get this 5 of my team mates are foster parents, 25%! I'm not talking family foster children either, 3 of my team mates have inter racial foster children, 2 have serious health concerns with their children.

I cannot speak highly enough of my team its special, hardest working best cohesion one in a million team but what these men and women do for their personal morals is beyond belief, I have four team mates with families of 7 or more, they do not have any financial support from the Government and do not ask for it either.

I still have to believe that parents have to become accountable for their kids, then I think we have a fighting chance to fix this problem, as for the amount of Criminals we have in the prison system, if we can decrease the number of criminals entering the prisons the situation will fix itself over the next 30 years, even if we can keep the number of criminals entering the prisons close to what it is now it will fix itself, but for god sakes can you imagine what would happen if we put parents who owed $10,000 in child support in prison? The key to this may be holding parents accountable for being dead beats, but as I said earlier anyone can be a parent, and there is something very wrong with that. Some are natural parents, they would be a guiding light to any parent, but many many more simply see children as accessories or worse, we all know of parents that need their children to get money from uncle sam, these people should not be parents, they are a leach on society, I could go further but you get what I am saying and you know how fine the line we are walking is.

I truly believe that fixing parenting is a key to fixing the Prison system, the problem is how do we do it.

ugh, this is the point where I need to step back and evaluate my personal views and my political views, figure out which can be said, which have real merit in the conversation, and how bad do I want this thread to continue, we are starting to figure out that enabling poor life choices is a bad way to help people, but we do it from the top down, then deal with the repercussions from the bottom up, at some point we will need to remedy that, before it bankrupts us. Does that make sense without making it to political? Fixing poor parenting and not enabling poor parenting and poor life choices, I think we have a fighting chance to fix the system.

Think about it this way, you know I fight Wildland fires, one of the worst choices we made was the decision to fight all fires 100 years ago, so now we figure out that we have not allowed mother nature to clean her self up and now how do we fix what we have done, to me it sounds ironically familiar, we had the best intentions but in the end we made the wrong decision, now we have to fix it, I can't say it anymore PC then that, hopefully the Mods understand how delicately I danced around that one LOL!!

I'm headed inside Bubba, Hopefully I will talk to you later!
 
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