Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

[heycods]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

Originally posted by Darth D Invader:<br /> Heycods, the demise of the independent farmer is not due to cheap importation of food, it is however because of the unfair multinational corporate welfare subsides to companies such as Archer Daniels Midland and their ilk.<br />There is no way for the independent farmer to compete on an equally competitive field.<br />therefore they cut their losses and sell out to the property developers.<br />Corporate communism is alive and well in the USA thanks to wonderful regulations of our campagne financing system.

Right on but it still dont change the fact that we are a nation heading for food dependance on foriegn nations, ADM or any other big carghil type giant may be pulling the string, but we as a nation are heading down a bleak path, My point is if subsitys keep a small farmer alive It could well prove to be a lifesaver for a nation in the future.<br /> One of my chief gripes about the subsitys is that of every dollar the farmer gets their are two dollars going to administration cost and pork barrel programs comming out of that agg subsity program

 

[bootle]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

The bulk of the subsides goes to the giants, the independent farmer also recieve subsidized aid, but not enough to keep their farms profitable. This is the direct result of the big boys ( Monsanto, Carghil, ADM ..ect ) lobbying dollars going to elected officials. The perfect example of how Joe's taxpayers dollar is used against Joe.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

yepo<br /> been watching the smaller mom and pop farms die off for almost 40 years.<br /> its only gonna get worse as the more the govt tries to "fix" it the worse it gets bungled.<br />try crunching up some numbers for say a 2000 acre soybean,winter wheat crop.<br /> factor in a new tractor and tractor maint over 10 years combined with tractor equipment and maint and the cost gets staggering, yall just think boating is expensive.<br />so mom and pop age a bit and the farm passes to the kids, now its either break up the farm into smaller even less profitable farms or sell it off, developers usually pay more than other farmers so who gets the farm?<br />right now I have 21 of the most beautiful woods on the outer banks for sale, the nature conservancy has until apr 30th to put the money in my bank or the land goes to the next guy in line who has plans for 28 houses and some amenities. ill make a bit less from the state but I would rather that than see my woods destroyed.<br /> but yep that giant sucking sound is great for mega corperations but bad for average joe taxpayer. just as CAFTA is the worst bit of policy I ever read.<br />I am no fan of chavez and some of his programs but if he can get a handle of the rampant govt corruption he may actually be able to improve the venezuelans lifestyle. but only if he can drastically reduce the corruption and get the legal system working again.<br /> but he has some good ideas, one is the 20-30% tax on all imported goods, if its not made in VE it costs 20-30% more right off the bat. tends to make folks purchase more home country items. it also gives an incentive for small busness to manufacture stuff in country like the US used to.<br /> VE subsidizes the fuel, last christmas all the premium unleaded I could burn cost roughly 28 cents a gallon and most of it was refined in Houston TX at the citgo refinery, last year VE eliminated leaded fuels altogether to lower costs.<br /> but sadly I see the mom and pop farms as a dead way of life in the next 40 years.

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

There are a few things about ethanol production<br /><br />1 - sugar beets are better BUT corn grows better here in the US, especially the west. <br /><br />2 - bio corn - especially plants with 2-4 ears of corn are coming, so that you can easily double to quadruple production but here is the key, in the same place, using same resources using roughly the same fuel.<br /><br />ethanol has the same problem that hydrogen does, less energy per gallon of fuel then gasoline, so you always have to do conversions, which is why you see 10% conversions not 100% conversions.<br /><br />From all that I have read on these various fuels is that when the cost of oil goes up over $60 a barrel then these other fuels can be put into play in areas where they make sense to do that.<br /><br />Hence ethanol in the midwest where two things come into play<br /><br />1 - low shipping costs to the end user for corn versus higher shipping costs gasoline<br /><br />2 - high shipping costs to get in gasoline.<br /><br />One thing that I read about a philospher/scientist was his comment on fuels.<br /><br />We did not move from the stone age to bronze because we ran of stones, bronze was better, hence each age was a movement to something better. <br /><br />We will move to a "new" fuel era when something better comes along, right now there are a lot of promising things out there and some of them will win in the long run.<br /><br />I think ethanol is just a short term (10-20)year to profit (not a bad word) off the end of gasoline era. <br /><br />From what I have read the ethanol people are only going after the high profit areas of fuel consumption.<br /><br />For me saving 1% on my fuel costs means very little but to a govt or business like fedex 1% would be a huge savings.<br /><br />Tomatolord

 

[QC]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

Originally posted by tomatolord:<br /> We will move to a "new" fuel era when something better comes along, right now there are a lot of promising things out there and some of them will win in the long run.<br /><br />For me saving 1% on my fuel costs means very little but to a govt or business like fedex 1% would be a huge savings

Some of you know that alternative fuels for trucks is what I do for a living . . . Anyway, the first quote above is right on. The sheet that works will win out. The fact is that none of it works as well as petroleum yet. Tough act to follow. Stays where you put it for the most part is one of the biggest benefits. Most of this other stuff tries to get away <br /><br />Also, FedEx, UPS etc have been my customers. They'll do 10 trucks for PR reasons, but anything else must stack up economically. Usually they require and Internal Rate of Return of 15% or more. They look at the cost of my stuff (as much as $30 - $50 grand per truck) and they require a payback in around 18 months and that 15%. That is a pretty steep hill to climb without grants and carp like we get now. One of the things I don't like about this business is that we need grant money in most countries. Right now the only standalone by economics is Australia and that's because some of their trucks burn 100,000 gallons of diesel a year each . . .

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

I just posed a few questions in the Non-boating Techinical heading about E-85. Some of the responses may be of interest to readers of this thread as they come in.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

Originally posted by QC:<br />And, I don't care where it comes from the energy matters . . . Nat gas, coal, diesel, gasoline or Hydro-electric.

Where that energy comes from is a very important part of this discussion. If our gas is 10% ethanol, made with natural gas or electricity, that means 10% of the fuel I'm burning didn't come from an oil well in the middle east. Even if it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than you get back, that energy came from this country...and you're supporting an american worker too. What we really need are nuclear powered ethanol plants.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

ZmOz<br /> your forggeting the amount of oil from latin america and the oil sands in canada, at 100 dollars a barrel VE is now the largest oil reserves on the market. the oil sands in canada are very profitable as well. how long before we invade both <br /> I posted last december that I could see gas at 3 dollars/gal by june and 3.5 by july forth. I may not miss it much.<br /> a buddy tipped me off cause they started selling hundreds of casing and tubing cutters, mens certain fields were shutting down waiting on the market.<br /> it will be that price cause oil companies know now we will pay it, plain and simple.

 

[JB]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

How about methane?<br /><br />During the war some people built methane generators, "coal gas" generators and "wood gas" generators to run their homes and machinery.<br /><br />In China many homes are heated and cookstoves fueled by home generated methane.<br /><br />Mother Earth News published a book on methane generation and use. I have a copy of it around here somewhere.

 

[QC]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

Pipeline Natural gas is 90%+ methane in most parts of the country, lower % in the winter in colder climates, they boost with ethane, propane and butane. There are land fill gas (LFG) plants here now that, after clean-up, can deliver better than 95% methane. The purest methane in the country comes from liquefiers in Wyoming and olefin plants in the Gulf. 99%+ pure methane. Very good stuff for our truck engines. Wood gas, coal gas, digestor gas and land fill gas are usually pretty low percentage methane . . .

 

[BassMan283]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

Actually, JB, here in the midwest most corn is fertilized with anhydrous ammonia which is made from natural gas. Might be different in other parts of the country.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

while all of the above may work reagionally, and some quite well, I dont think it will work nation wide.<br /> the engine mods and mostly the fuel distribution centers will be the limiting factor.<br /><br /> comes a point of dimishing returns, kinda like we have hit with the cost of defending the persian gulf reagion .<br /> we really really need to get our govt focused on an alternative to oil as a fuel for mass transport.<br /> the chemical industry will continue to rely on it for years.

 

[JB]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

What we need to do is find ways to adapt to what is, and quit whining for "the guvmint" to change it.

 

[glasply1]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

Electricity from the sun and from the tides get my votes. <br />As for methane, if I could carry a tank around on my back I could collect quite a bit. Sorry, but every serious topic has room for a little frivolity.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

JB<br /> right now the govt,through NASA and some of our universities are the only programs funded well enough to persure any alternate sources.<br /> like it or not its just a fact.<br /> the other fact is they have been negligent, for whatever reason, in doing it.<br /> isnt that why they tax us and support those programs or is it all to give tax credits to oil companies that have no incentive at this point to develop anything else but profits ?

 

[QC]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

My salary has been indirectly paid by Gov't alternative energy money over the last ten years through a variety of funds we have pursued. Grants to offset the cost of individual vehicles to entire power-plant development programs. We do nothing but invent, improve and commercialize our own alternative fuel technologies.<br /><br />The University programs are mostly a joke and we don't spend anytime on them. They set us back every time they test something with a test cycle that is not analogous to the application. Happens in every country we have worked in. I am currently fighting an emissions test in Australia on a 500 bhp engine when the chassis dyno they used was only capable of 300 bhp. Frankly, this is ridiculous in a country that allows 130 ton gross loads (US limit is around 36 metric tons . . .) We turn away money if it is to be spent on technologies that will derail our focus. In my experience, money given to the private sector is spent much more efficiently even if you factor in fraudulent uses.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

QC<br /> yep sadly it seems that most govt funded things are aimed more at getting a political buddy reelected than actually doing something.<br /> the epitomy is when your active duty military had have to fight a civilian in PSD or housing.<br /> however the current admin is not doing much for alternatives other than giving some big oil companies tax breaks for development, as if the really want to.

 

[JB]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

BP, Exxon-Mobil and others spend more money on developing alternative energy sources than the US government. Yeah, those same guys that the Liberals call demons.<br /><br />Nothing like a profit motive to get things moving.

 

[yoder]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

all i know is im putting a lock on all my tanks

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Corn ,ethanol and gasoline.

JB<br /> while they are spending the money on the development its like giving a fox a sterno stove and the henhouse keys and going on vacation.<br /> I really dont trust big oil to develop anything they wont keep a monopoly on.<br /> and so far it seems a third world place like Brazil has almost weaned itself from gasoline in auto's and the US is still guzzling.<br />we have heard a lot of speech and seen a lot of posturing in the past 30 years but no real progress.