circuit breaker for trolling motor

[BUDDY123]

Minn Kota "recommends 60amp manual-reset circuit breaker" Can I get away with an inline 40-50-60 amp fuse ($10-15) or go with circuit break at ($35>). Any other suggestions highly appreciated. Model is Endura 45.

 

[RicMic]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Fuse is no problem, of course carry spares. I had the fuse, but changed over to the circuit breaker, because I can use it as an off switch, by hitting the "test" button, so I can turn off power to the motor without disconnecting the wires. My MinnKotas have the power meter on them and I have found they drain the battery slowly, even with the motor "off".

 

[TerryMSU]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

I bought an automatic reset circuit breaker for mine. It was a 50 amp, not 60, but I have had no issues. The problem with fuses is that you always need a spare. What if you blow one twice? No spare?

http://www.iboats.com/24-Volt-Marin...4768529--**********.551677207--view_id.197184

Only $11.50, plus there is no unprotected length of wire between the battery and the breaker. Before you comment about the 24 volt rating, I can tell you that the higher voltage rating is not an issue. If you were putting a 12 breaker in a 24 volt system, that would be an issue, but not the other way (for circuit breakers or fuses only).

TerryMSU

 

[ajgraz]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Been using a 40-amp inline fuse on 10AWG on my Motorguide 12v 54-lb troller for years with no issue.

 

[RicMic]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Personally I would NOT use an automatic reset circuit breaker, to many things can happen and none of them are good. Manual reset are fine, manual reset with test button are the best and fuses are fine also, as long as you have the spares. Size the fuse or circuit breaker to the MAX rating of the wire.

 

[BUDDY123]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Thanks for all the replys. For now I think I will go with the inline fuse idea and carry a few spares. Have read a few forums and really haven't seen to many users complain about motors burning up due to surge, but some protect is better than none.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

So explain your line of reasoning:

Quote: Personally I would NOT use an automatic reset circuit breaker, to many things can happen and none of them are good. (Like what????)

 

[TerryMSU]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Minn Kota "recommends 60amp manual-reset circuit breaker" Can I get away with an inline 40-50-60 amp fuse ($10-15) or go with circuit break at ($35>). Any other suggestions highly appreciated. Model is Endura 45.

I was about to tell you that my manual did not say manual reset. I went to look, and after I finally found it, it does say manual reset. I would not think it would be a big issue, but I could be missing something.

TerryMSU

 

[fishrdan]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

So explain your line of reasoning:

Quote: Personally I would NOT use an automatic reset circuit breaker, to many things can happen and none of them are good. (Like what????)

With a short circuit an automatic relay will trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset, trip, cool, reset..... draining the battery and/or burning something up

With a shorted circuit a manual reset relay will trip and stay tripped, allowing you to find and fix the problem.

You will do fine with the fuse, though I think a circuit breaker is the better option, even if it's a small $10 breaker. The circuit breaker (or fuse) isn't to protect the trolling motor, it's to protect the battery and wiring against direct shorts.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

So it is doing exactly what it is designed to do and you have not indicated what "all of those bad things are". And each time a circuit breaker trips it derates itself slightly so after a few cycles it is resetting quicker and quicker until it stays open. No problem with that. If they were dangerous, they would not be allowed on the boat. Look through these posts and check for folks whose trolling motors go on, then off, then on then off. Yup, they don't even know they have a circuit breaker, what it does, or how it works so it really makes no difference which way you go. With a fuse, how many people do you know that the first thing they do when they see a blown fuse is to -- well -- replace the fuse. Surprise -- it just blew again. Must be a fluke so they try again -- yup, another fuse. And with a manual breaker, they do the same -- push the button (if they know it is there). There is no perfect solution here so use what you like. And by the way, I knew what your answer would be so that's why I baited you.

 

[RicMic]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Gee, my trolling motor stopped, must be those weeds, I'll just clean those off, RESET. The difference between changing a fuse or a manual reset circuit breaker, is that I am doing those things, not the circuit breaker, so as you say, a lot of people don't even know they have a circuit breaker until, the motor restarts without warning."If they were dangerous, they would not be allowed on a boat", all kinds of dangerous things are allowed, UNTIL they are not. At least in theory, a person resetting a circuit breaker or replacing a fuse is smarter than a couple dollar piece of metal and plastic.

 

[rwidman]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Thanks for all the replys. For now I think I will go with the inline fuse idea and carry a few spares. Have read a few forums and really haven't seen to many users complain about motors burning up due to surge, but some protect is better than none.

The fuse, holder, and "a few spares" may equal the cost of a circuit breaker.

If there's no compelling reason (and in this case, cost is not a compelling reason) to use something other than what the manufacturer recommends, it's best to go with what the manufacturer recommends. After all, they designed it and know it best.

BTW: The circuit protection is to protect the wire or cable from overheating and burning. It should be placed within seven inches of the source (battery in most cases).

 

[rwidman]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

........ And each time a circuit breaker trips it derates itself slightly so after a few cycles it is resetting quicker and quicker until it stays open. ..........

I don't think so.

 

[RicMic]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

quote from Minn Kota manual, "WARNING-To prevent personal injury or property damage, always install a 60 amp MANUAL-RESET circuit breaker in line with the trolling motor positive(+)lead(s) as close to the battery as possible". I can't find fault with that.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

So now circuit breakers don't derate. Interesting since every electronic component derates with use. That's why stuff dies -- whether it is electrical or mechanical. Auto reset breakers have been around for decades so if they were dangerous, they would have been pulled from the market. Apparently even attorneys havent figured out that these are dangerous.

So would you want a manual reset breaker or a fuse in your automatic bilge pump? Either one kills the pump - permanently. So you arrive and found your boat sunk. Short circuits in the feed to a device are not the only cause for high current conditions. A binding bearing in a motor (like a bilge pump) causes that motor to draw more current than normal but it will continue to run until current draw exceeds the fuse/breaker rating. In this case the pump to run in on-off cylcles at least delaying the sinking of the boat and it causes no "dangerous issues". I also take issue with Minnkota recommending a 60A breaker on a motor that draws only 42 amps. That's more than 40% over the maximum draw. That maximum rating is likely at stalled rotor. A motor with a stalled rotor will quickly heat up and will likely be burning before the breaker sees 60A. Since the motor is in the water at the time this is not likely a problem but the wires INTO the motor tend to be a bit smaller than the feed so external wiring can be affected. This is even more of a problem if you fuse an auto bilge pump for the rating of the wire rather than the pump itself. Apparently it's ok to let the pump burn up before the current draw is high enough to pop the breaker or fuse. House circuits are protected on the wire size basis since many devices are connected to one circuit. This is rather rediculous as well since 16 gauge lamp cord is fed by a 20 amp branch circuit breaker. On a boat, circuits with just one device should be protected with a fuse/breaker that is rated slightly above the maximum current draw of the device, not what the wire is capable of handling. That obviously protects the circuit and it prevents the device from going up in smoke.

Lastly -- did I once say I "recommended" an auto reset breaker? I merely asked you to explain the very "dangerous" issues. The term dangerous always needs to be used carefully. There are many ways to protect a circuit and the devices on that circuit.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

http://www.optifuse.com/blog/t100127.php

In this case, the circuit breaker opened and closed multiple times over the course or several minutes because the short circuit was still present and never cleared. Finally, after several minutes of cycling on and off, the contacts of the circuit breaker finally welded shut due to the heat of the present short circuit. With the circuit breaker now incapacitated, the wires underneath the dashboard eventually grew so hot that the insulation on the wire caught fire causing lots of smoke and a bit of panic from the bus riders.......

The use of automatic reset circuit breakers are convenient for an overloaded circuit but offer little long-term protection when a short-circuit condition is present.

 

[RicMic]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

So now circuit breakers don't derate. Interesting since every electronic component derates with use. That's why stuff dies -- whether it is electrical or mechanical. Auto reset breakers have been around for decades so if they were dangerous, they would have been pulled from the market. Apparently even attorneys havent figured out that these are dangerous.

So would you want a manual reset breaker or a fuse in your automatic bilge pump? Either one kills the pump - permanently. So you arrive and found your boat sunk. Short circuits in the feed to a device are not the only cause for high current conditions. A binding bearing in a motor (like a bilge pump) causes that motor to draw more current than normal but it will continue to run until current draw exceeds the fuse/breaker rating. In this case the pump to run in on-off cylcles at least delaying the sinking of the boat and it causes no "dangerous issues". I also take issue with Minnkota recommending a 60A breaker on a motor that draws only 42 amps. That's more than 40% over the maximum draw. That maximum rating is likely at stalled rotor. A motor with a stalled rotor will quickly heat up and will likely be burning before the breaker sees 60A. Since the motor is in the water at the time this is not likely a problem but the wires INTO the motor tend to be a bit smaller than the feed so external wiring can be affected. This is even more of a problem if you fuse an auto bilge pump for the rating of the wire rather than the pump itself. Apparently it's ok to let the pump burn up before the current draw is high enough to pop the breaker or fuse. House circuits are protected on the wire size basis since many devices are connected to one circuit. This is rather rediculous as well since 16 gauge lamp cord is fed by a 20 amp branch circuit breaker. On a boat, circuits with just one device should be protected with a fuse/breaker that is rated slightly above the maximum current draw of the device, not what the wire is capable of handling. That obviously protects the circuit and it prevents the device from going up in smoke.

Lastly -- did I once say I "recommended" an auto reset breaker? I merely asked you to explain the very "dangerous" issues. The term dangerous always needs to be used carefully. There are many ways to protect a circuit and the devices on that circuit.

Circuit breakers are not "electonic", they are electro-mechanical.
The only one that brought up the term "dangerous" or now "very dangerous" was you. Machine control design basic, all systems fail to a SAFE condition and do NOT restart without action from the operator. Automatically restarting without warning and without any action from the operator, is NOT failing "safe". Lawn darts were around a long time too, before the attorneys figured out they were dangerous. What manufacturer installs automatic reset circuit breakers on trolling motors? I could use a new boat and a lot of money!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Quote: "Personally I would NOT use an automatic reset circuit breaker, to many things can happen and none of them are good."

That sounds "dangerous to me!"

Now lets get back to derating. It is no secret that circuit breakers fail. Why they fail falls into a couple categories. Regardless of the style of breaker or the way they operate, they can fail because of a physical fault -- meaning something broke due to a defect in manufacture, shock and vibration, or because it has been operated so many times it either fails entirely or that it cannot hold its rated current. As an aside, there have been posts here where some folks like the "test" feature on a manual reset breaker as they can use it as an on-off switch. The NEC happens to have special designations and design criterea for breakers used as "switches". Why? Derating issues that's why. Temperature also has an effect on how a breaker reacts which is called "temperature derating". Enough nits picked about derating.

I happen to also be a fan of lawn darts by the way and they by themselves were not dangerous. The idiots that used them carelessly were dangerous.

For every event where a breaker caused a problem there are opposing situations so it is like politics. As for your reference regarding the bus with the breaker welded in the closed position -- I suspect one could find an equal number of instances where a manual reset breaker caused a similar incident because it didn't open. Just because that happened to be an automatic breaker doesn't make it bad. It all boils down to the fact that if man made it -- it can fail regardless what it is.

Lastly, the references you've provided all deal with "short circuits". There are all sorts of scenarios that are not direct shorts that do cause breakers to trip. I presented two of them.

Again -- I have nothing against manual reset breakers or fuses and I do not suggest every circuit needs an auto reset breaker. Use what you want and enjoy. If you worry about what "might happen" you will have an unhappy existance. Life itself is a crap shoot but you can limit your risks with reasonable consideration.

 

[NYBo]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

Sounds like an automatic reset breaker for the automatic bilge pump and a manual for the main might be the way to go.

 

[Barnacle_Bill]

Re: circuit breaker for trolling motor

I don't think so.

Yes they will and so will the breakers in your house if you use them as an on/off switch.