It all depends where you sit. <br /><br />There's millions of people in South America who would apply the same principle to the US Army School of the Americas if they were in a position to avenge the wrongs that have been done to them by people trained there. <br /><br />The choices are either kill out of hand people you have decided are your enemy or determine who deserves punishment through the rule of law. I prefer the latter. At least it distinguishes me from terroristsIf it walks like a terrorist, looks like a terrorist and was captured in a terrorist training camp, it's a terrorist. [/QB]
That makes perfect sense to me. Many in this country think that we should follow a "world" set of rules administered by a "world court.<br /><br />Not me. Especially considering the despots and nut cases that would sit as judges on the world court. Also, considering that many would probably come from the so called leadership at the UN.<br /><br />I'm not willing to give up my/our soveriegnty that easy. Our system is not perfect but at least we have a say in it. That "say" is excersized every time I go to the ballot box. A priveledge that many in this country do not excersize, to their own peril.<br /><br />As far as underhanded dealings by the CIA or other clandestine gov't agencies, that's nothing new. When one needs to deal with brutal animals one needs to do it two ways. 1. Overwhelmiing force or 2. cloak and dagger style.<br /><br />It's always been that way and as long we're human, it always will be.Laws for the citizenry do not apply to non citizens. Especially those for which we are at war with.<br />
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.<br /><br />Be a good idea to look back 70 to 80 years when the West through various cartels and market manipulation practices had Japan over a barrel, selling it raw materials at relatively high prices that the West dictated and then buying Japan's manufactured goods at the depressed prices the West dictated. <br /><br />It has to be remembered that the US through Commodore Perry in the mid-19th century had forced Japan by gunboat diplomacy to open trade with the West. This didn't exactly endear the West in general and the US in particular to nationalist and military elements of a proud race. An insult that certainly hadn't been forgotten in some powerful quarters by 1941.<br /><br />These economic injustices and memory of a national insult were major contributors to Japan's justifiable sense of oppression by the West. In part it led to and in Japanese minds justified its military expansion to capture sources of supply of raw materials in Asia and South East Asia in WWII. <br /><br />Focusing on Japanese military attacks and atrocities in WWII and earlier in China obscures the fact that less selfish and exploitative economic policies by the West might have (not necessarily would have because there were other factors contributing to Japan's military expansion) averted war with Japan. <br /><br />It would also have averted the ironic post-war exercise where the West, predominantly the US, having learnt from the crushing terms of the Versailles treaty which ultimately produced the Eurpoean component of WWII, pumped squillions into Japan and Germany to rebuild their economies and countries.<br /><br />So the Japanese fought a war to improve their terms of trade with the West; caused untold destruction, suffering, death and misery in the process;lost the war; and were rewarded with improved terms of trade and an economic miracle. Just like Germany. <br /><br />Be a real pity to make the same mistake with China. It mightn't turn out the same way for the West.Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> In other posts I have read that "China is up to no good".This usually is about China and India driving up the world market prices of raw materials and oil.<br />Are they up to no good or is their increased demand just a natural result of their effort to increase the wellbeing of their nation and people?Does the fact that we americans now have to share the playing field with other growing and powerful nations, who try to get their piece of the pie the same we have always got it, mean that they are up to no good?<br />Besides, there is a very interesting new cycle starting up in all of this.<br />China produces from raw materials,we buy the finished product,use it up and junk it.By doing this,we produce raw materials which in turn, the Chinese buy and turn into finished products.<br />How about we stop pointing a finger at China and start pointing a finger at our own consumption and production habits,thereby changing this cycle back to where we are the producers?
I'd say that the Japanese through their WWII invasions actually did more for the liberation of European colonies in Asia and S.E Asia and opening up those markets than anything that happened later.<br /><br />They showed locals that their English, French and Dutch colonial masters could be trounced by a small Asian nation.<br /><br />After the war the vacuum left by the departing Japanese was contested by the former colonial powers, their local supporters, and the local nationalist movements. <br /><br />One of the most enduring ironies is that in the '50's an obscure Vietnamese bloke who'd returned from exile kept writing to the US seeking support for the Vietnamese seeking independence from the French, in the belief that the US supported peoples striving for independence from colonial rule as the US had in 1776. Poor old Ho Chi Minh's entreaties for support from the beacon of freedom got lost on State Department desks. The rest we know. Another lost opportunity resulting in immeasurable unnecessary and futile deaths, suffering and misery which 30 years on sees only trade with Vietnam as being the West's great objective. <br /><br />Why do I despair?Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> When Foster-Dulles went on his anti-colonialism campaign in the fifties and sixties,his real goal was the destruction of the colonialist trade monopolies of Britain,France and the Netherlands.He did through diplomacy what Japan could not do through war.He opened up the markets and American companies moved into the newly created vacuum.Now this monopoly is undermined by a powerful new player.<br />
Maybe.<br /><br />The fact that is not appreciated by many in the West is that in China the Army and the Communist Party and their various officials are the ultimate owners and beneficiaries of a system of patronage and privilege which delivers the major dollars into their pockets. <br /><br />The workers get ripped off in pursuit of maximum dollars for the owners of capital.<br /><br />The further up the banana tree you are, the more bananas you get.<br /><br />Also the more power you have in determining who gets the banana skins, and who is allowed to climb the banana tree.<br /><br />Sounds a lot like the US or any other capitalist economy, except the people who run Halliburton etc ain't wearing caps with little red stars. But the result is the same.Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> Under ordinary circumstances, a country's economic growth should lead to stability and bolster peace. But, if anyone thinks that the economic benefit of China's growth is benefiting the masses, I suggest giving up the crackpipe. China is still operating under a command economy, and the profits made by Red China, Inc. are being plowed right back into a military buildup---and that is NOT to stimulate their economy, it's to extend Red China's political influence throughout the Pacific Rim, and the World.<br /><br />The leadership of Communist China is like all other despotic regimes. It is self-serving and self-perpetuating, and any good that accrues to the masses is only a coincidence, or even an oversight on the leadership's part.<br /><br />It would serve anyone who cares to think about it to remember that there is a huge difference between the philosophies of Liberty and Communism---the worth of the Individual. To believe that the Chinese communists have forgotten their basic philosophy is idiocy.<br /><br /><br />-dd-
I bet you can get a few thousand knock offs of the old engine reproduced in China for practically nothing.Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> This thread is getting a bit hard to follow on a lazy sunday morning.I think I will retreat to a johnnie/rude thread asking for the age of an old engine.
We did.<br /><br />Rounded up people of German descent in WWI and took their property.<br /><br />Did the same with those of Italian and Japanese descent in WWII.<br /><br />Never apolgised to or compensated any of them. Serves them right. Live here for a few generations and think they're one of us. What cheek!<br /><br />Funny thing is that in WWI the Japanese and Italians were allies of the Allies, but barely 20 years later they'd all gone over to the other side. <br /><br />Even stranger is that while we were busily interning those of Italian descent we were spreading Italian POW's around our farms to replace sons who'd gone off to war (part of which as I recall was fighting Italians as the original fascists). Lots of farmers loved them. Hard workers. Understood farming. Lots of them were sponsored as migrants after the war by the farmers they'd been assigned to during the war.<br /><br />Yep, this all makes sense. Shoot, bayonet, bludgeon, blow up, burn, and generally do all you can to damage the enemy; then use him to replace the soldiers who are shooting, bayonetting etc etc the enemy; then sponsor the enemy to join us after the war because they're actually good blokes that'll fit right in, notwithstanding wartime propaganda that they're inhuman monsters.<br /><br />I'm so glad the world is a rational and fair place run by governments which are the same.Originally posted by rodbolt:<br />[QB] our response was to round up american citizens that were of japanese desent and strip them of all property and citizenship and pack them off to concentration camps. why did we not do the same with those of German or Russian or Italian descent?.
So workers in China who choose to work for a given enterprise are working for "Red China"?<br /><br />But workers in the US who are working for a given enterprise are working for which country?Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> "Sounds a lot like the US or any other capitalist economy, except the people who run Halliburton etc ain't wearing caps with little red stars. But the result is the same."<br /><br /><br />Yeah...right.<br /><br />Didn't understand this part? "It would serve anyone who cares to think about it to remember that there is a huge difference between the philosophies of Liberty and Communism---the worth of the Individual."<br /><br />If you don't like working for Haliburton, go to work for a competitior, or even in a different field. The difference is that under our system, you have a choice. In Red China, you are working for Red China, Inc. whether you like it or not.<br /><br />Stop whining.