CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

[anauburnfan]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Before I write anything else, I must say how much I appreciate all the help and suggestions from you folks. It really reduces the frustration of trying to figure this out.

As for the last 2 replies

Yes I can take a picture tonite showing the pack. I will take one with the pack in place and one with it pulled back so the wiring is visible.

As for the cdi testing I will go ahead and run through those tests. When I checked the dva for the orange coil wires this weekend it was with engine idlibg on the hose. I have not gone through the link and sync procedure yet - just got the service manual at christmas. Someone had suggested previously that I do that, but had to wait for manual. Looks like it is pretty straightforward procedure, and the only reason I haven't done it yet was that I got a little discourged after reading about the tdc setting and needing a piston stop tool to verify that and the test wheel requirement for the timing adjustments...at this point all I can say about timing is that tdc seems like it is close to where the mark is going by a feeler wire stuck in the plug hole while rotating flywheel by hand. And timing at idle on hose reads about 10 degrees atdc which I know is not how it is supposed to be tested.

As for the plugs, they are champion and they were new when I got motor, though it has never run right in water since I got it. Since then (around august) I have only run it in water for brief peroids of time to test it. Maybe 4 hour total maybe I should just go ahead and replace them to be sure. It will take me a while to run through the tests and linkage, but will report back when those are done. I will post the pics tonight though.

Thanks again for all the assistance.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

The ignition system is NOT your problem.

Idling fine on the hose but a lean sneeze/couogh,dying once in the water is a classic symtom of a lean idle mixture.

Your problem is in the carbs, still.

If your carbs do not have the adjustable idle mixture screws, then they have idle air bleeds that may yet still be slightly dirty and not passing enough air to cause enough fuel flow, making the idle mixture wrong.

Very careful attention must be paid to BOTH the carb bodies AND the throttle body assy's to ensure that ALL passages, air and fuel, are clean and clear, before reassembly.

 

[daselbee]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Yup...agree with Charlieb 100%. My opinion is ethanol is the deep down culprit. It is an "oxygenizer" to fuel. The oxygen is "built in" so to speak. You need to richen up your idle mixture.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Ca you explain the how to's on this "richen up idle misture"

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

usually just clean the idle jet ports good..

 

[boobie]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Sometimes on these mtrs if everything else is CORRECT, you will have to change the idle air bleed jets to get it to idle properly. Either rich or lean by changing jet size.

 

[daselbee]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Boobie is absolutely right when he says "if everything else is correct". So, assuming that "everything else is correct", you go up in size to make the carb pull in more fuel. This is due to the more air flowing through the side labyrinth, the more fuel gets pulled up those small brass tubes that stick down into the carb bowl (pullover tubes).

I would go up three sizes for starters. But it is trial and error. It is not as critical as you may think, changes of three sizes will get you where you want to be, I think, that is, you probably won't have to do single size changes. As I have said, the ethanol in the fuel adds oxygen (molecules in the form of alcohol) and makes the fuel leaner from the get go.

From 1988 thru 1996 they made constant changes to these carbs, and in 1996 finally settled on a good design with an adjustable idle needle and only one idle bleed jet. Those carbs need to have the idle bleed jet changed from a #27 to a #30 (on 200 HP models) so that the proper needle setting is right at 5 turns out. It seems that one turn of the needle equals one jet size. If you keep the #27s in, the needle is turned out to 7 or 8 turns, and the spring tension is gone and the needle will vibrate out.

Areas to look at first to make sure "everything else is correct" are:

1. Very very small holes drilled into the side of the throttle bore, right behind the butterflies when they are in the closed position. Probably three holes, but I don't have his carb setup in front of me. Those holes and the passages that feed them must be clean.
Tiny holes must be cleaned with tiny copper wire and carb cleaner or acetone.

2. The black carb body has a side plate screwed to it on the STBD side. Clean behind that plate well.

3. The black carb body has tubes (pullover tubes) extending down into the fuel bowl. They are very small, and can easily varnish up on the inside, restricting fuel flow. Again, small wire and solvent to clean. Watch out for the type of solvent you use as acetone will melt the plastic carb body if used here.

4. Make sure no one has swapped the jet locations on you. There are idle air bleed jets, and intermediate air bleed jets, and i have seen those two swapped from the proper locations.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

What do we use to clean these. The chlorinated or non-clorinated carb cleaner for plastic carb bodies?

 

[daselbee]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

I use acetone on the aluminum throttle bodies. Do not use acetone on the plastic bodies. I use plain gasoline on the black plastic bodies, and I will be the first to say that I have never encountered a bad, gunked up carb that would not clean up with gasoline. I am sure they are out there. I use compressed air to blow thru all passages, including the pullover tubes.

 

[boobie]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

If memory serves me right, I think you go down in size to get more fuel on the idle "air" bleeds. I've always used OMC Engine Tuner to clean any part of any carb. Never had a prob no matter how long you let it sit.

 

[daselbee]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Yeah...there is some controversy here. The guys on Scream and Fly absolutely swear that you go up in size to get more fuel. I thought it would make the idle mix leaner to put more air in, but it actually increases the air flow thereby drawing more fuel up through the pullover tubes. I have always questioned it myself, but I have experimented specifically with the 96 200 carbs in my example above, and by putting bigger air bleed jets in, it richened up the mix so that I could adjust it back down with the screws.

 

[boobie]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

With adjustment screws on your carbs they are different than the '88's. Back it those days, just the idle air jets controled fuel flow, then they had adustable needles that controlled air flow, then in later yrs the adjustable needles finally controlled fuel. Ya, I know it gets confuseing.

 

[anauburnfan]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Interesting discussion on the air bleeds. I am going to work under the assumption that I do not have everything correct yet.

I am going to take these carbs off and clean again too in addition to the other suggestions. When I went through them before, I left the aluminum throttle body in place, but I sprayed carb cleaner through the tiny passages where the intermediate and idle jets line up. Seems like cleaner shot out right behind the throttle plates if I remember right. Is it necessary to remove the aluminum throttle body to clean adequately? I didn't want to do it before for fear of disturbing the linkage. But now that I have manual that would be less of a concern. Are there any things to watch out for when removing the throttle body and is there another gasket I will need to replace?

Also, on those 2 little pullover tubes...I did run a little copper wire up them and sprayed cleaner and compressed air. But I didn't really know how to be sure they were clean/clear of all debris. Any advice on how "freely" the cleaner should shoot through there? It seemed hard to tell since when it hits those little passages it get dispersed and squirts out right wherever your eyes are.

If all this fails, I will get some non ethanol gas to see if that helps any.

Thanks again for the help and discussion. Will post again when I get all this done.

 

[anauburnfan]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Wanted to provide an update here. Since last post, I have done several things and hope to put back on water this weekend for true test. First I performed link and sync procedure. I also confirmed that my rectifier/regulator was bad and replaced it. Don't know if a bad one causes any other problems, but my tach is working again and voltmeter show battery to be charging again. Also I found a fuel leak. The source was a corroded nipple that I guess is part of the recirc system. It is in the middle on front side of engine sort of below the pulse limiter. There was a hole in the side of the nipple. I just put some tighter tubing on it and made sure to cover the hole then tie strap. That stopped the leak. Don't know if this could have caused my idle problem since I guess air could have been going wherever that fuel was supposed to be going. I know I should replace this, but am unsure how to remove it. It looks impossible to get a wrench on it and there is no way a socket would work. Finally I changed the plugs. The old ones(L77JC4) were not Q type recommended, though the manual did list them as an alternate. If all that doesn't work, I will finish up the cdi testing and go thru the carbs one more time.

 

[Grassi25]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Keep us posted, this was a good read for me. Also, after suggestions are given I seldom see anyone say whether it worked or what did work.

 

[anauburnfan]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Well, still not right but getting better. Took carbs off again and finished cdi testing. Still had similar problems while on water. Tried to do the idle timing adjustment procedure. However, I could not keep engine running at idle with the expansion lock ring and adjustment knob turned all the way clockwise per procedure. With a lot of recranking and backing the knob back and forth, I think I finally got to measure the timing to be about 6 deg like manual says. Still did not want to idle right so I ended up changing to about 5 deg atdc. That seemed to help. I am generally able now to pull back into idle speed and keep running now more than half the time. Although not much more than half the time.

A friend who was helping me said he did not think that my tell tale was discharging strong enough at idle and suggested I change the impeller. He also seemed to think it took way to long for water to come out of tell tale when started. (It takes about 30 seconds and stream is pretty weak at idle). With all the cranking up and cutting off the engine overheat alarm sounded at one point and he more strongly encouraged me to change the pump. So i did replace the impeller, but cannot tell a difference in stream on hose. Old one did not look too bad but the vanes were permanently curved to fit in cup. I have no idea how long it takes for this to occur. Also, brass insert of impeller was corroded to shaft. This led me to belive the guy I bought the motor from did not replace it as he stated since I have only had it in fresh water. Had to use pb blaster to get it loose.

thought I would check the t-stats to make sure they were operating correctly and found that they had been removed. New ones on order now. I am hoping maybe cool water was keeping engine from idling correctly and t-stats will help, but I am doubtful as central florida lake temps arent really that cold...

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

First off YES they take that long to fill up with water at idle. I had the same question with mine and talked to the dealer. It takes like 4-5 gallons of water to fill the block before it comes out the peep hole.

Second if you have a salty then replacing the t-stats. It will make a difference in you over heat. But the constant starting and stopping is probably causing your over heat. as the block it not filling with water.

Have you confirmed your link and sinc? The butter files have to be perfect on these motors to idle correctly. Also they carbs and orfices in the trottle body need to be perfectly clean. How old is your gas? Migth want to hook up a smal gas can and run that for tuning. That way you know for sure it is not a phase sepparation in your tank with ethonol.

Timing on mine (1987) is 4-6 degrees. Some where in tha range. SO you whould be good.

 

[anauburnfan]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Thanks for the confirmation on the time for the stream and the idle timing.

Yes I did do the link and sync and I have been through the carbs 2 times. They are in good shape. Gas is fresh and I stabilize it. I have already bought the stats so they are going in when they come in. If I ever get this thing running right it will be on salt water, but the lakes are much closer and easier for testing.

I have another question about anodes and motor trim tab but will start new thread for it.

 

[anauburnfan]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Here is an update and one question. Since this motor had no thermostats, I installed 2 new ones last night. When I removed the covers, I could see the round seal in the cup. I had purchased new seals and cups. From the manual it seemed like the cup was supposed to be installed after the seal, but the old ones were installed so that the cup was put in first then the seal. Which way is correct? Since I could not easily remove the old cup I left it the way it was and just installed the new seal. Then the thermostat and diaphram went in. I cranked it on the hose and could tell a difference in the telltale right away. There was a small inconsistent weak sputtery stream right away then a thick solid stream after 30-45 seconds. Before, it would take that long to get a substantial dribble and then never reached the level of discharge it has now. Also the discharge heated up to a relatively warm state within a couple minutes. Previously it took forever to get kinda warm. All this was on the hose so I could not tell if it helped out with the idle. Will try to get it in the water soon. But I need to know for sure which way to put the seal and cup in or if it really matters. And does anyone have a suggestion on how to remove the old cups if I need to install the other way? I am worried about prying it out only to watch it fall down the water jacket.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: CDI test procedure question for 1988 johnson 200

Actually the way it has been explained to me from the dealer, the cup goes after the seal. But on mine it was backwards and I had the same problem. So I left them in the way they where. The cup is to ensure that the seal does nto expand and grip onto the t-stat. That's what has been expained to me from the dealer. Do you have a temp guage on the boat? If so just monitor it and you'll be fine with what you got. If she get a bit hot when running then replace them. That's my plan.

Sounds like the cooling system is fixed. What system do you have? Do you still have the water control valve system and hoses and diaphram? Or the standard spring t-stat and cover conversion system from a 70hp? If you have that system you will need to confirm the temps on the motor in the 1800-2000rpm range and maybe modify the springs to lift off at a lower temps. I had to do this in order to get the proper temp at the right RPM's. It's not hard. Just cut the sping to a certain free length.