Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

[ob]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Verify that engine temp is not excessive after warm-up by either touching head covers or using thermo melt stik at various locations on engine block and head covers.A 163 degree stik is what local dealer recommends.Insure that the carb linkage roller is aligned "on center" with scribe line on throttle cam in nuetral and "just" touching.

 

[OBJ]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Just a couple observations...<br />John....look under the flywheel area (don't pull it) and note if there is an excessive amount of oil around this area on the engine block. This would indicate a bad seal around the crankshaft and your sucking air. When the motor is idling, does any of the carbs appear to be spitting out? Easy way to note this is to hold a strip of tissue in front of each carb. If the tissure blows out, you probably have a cracked reed. (careful not to let the tissue get into the carb) And as ob suggests, use a temp stick for checking engine temp. I know a lot of us he-men touch the block but our fingers but our fingers aren't calibrated like temp sticks. We only know hot from cold. And this also keeps you away from moving parts like the flywheel. I've gotten dinged a couple times from flywheels. It ain't fun. Remember, safety is factor #1 when working on engines. (sorry guys, I'm just a big believer in safety)<br /><br />OBJim

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

I have checked engine temp. Can leave hand on engine block for about 10-15 seconds before getting a little hot, so I think engine temp is fine. I will try the tissue trick, check for oil leakage and recheck alignments tonight and let u know of outcome tomorrow.

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Ok, I couldn't wait for tomorrow so I zipped off home at lunchtime and tried the above.<br /><br />1. "Carb linkage roller is aligned "on center" with scribe line on throttle cam in nuetral and "just" touching". As suggested by OB, this was alligned already.<br /><br />2. No oil under flywheel<br /><br />3. Carbs do not spit out. Used a tissue to verify this. <br /><br />I think I need the tissue next because I am going to start crying if I don't fix this soon! <br /><br />After touching most parts of the engine with hand, I am fairly confident that it's not overheating.<br /><br />Any other suggestions?

 

[ob]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

John I feel your pain.The fact that it acts up after its warm after all the above has been ruled out forces us to look at other possibilities.Weak spark at idle after warm?Too rich of fuel to air ratio?I realize you have fixed orifices.Exhaust leak under cowl?Have you tried it with the cowl removed?Does this engine have a solenoid primer?

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

No, I haven't tried it with the cowl removed but will try it. Don't know if it has a solenoid primer, will check my manual tonight. A couple of days ago, a friend of mine was telling me that the orifices in my carbie may need to be changed as it may be running too rich or too lean. Should I take this point seriously and should I look at replacing these orifices trying different sizes? Also, which ones should I be changing. I have the diagram of the carbie above. The number would be sufficient.

 

[ob]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Orifice size change may very well be a consideration.What needs to be established , if it is fuel related, is whether we are chasing a rich or lean problem.Try two things after you run it to the point of it wanting to stall out again when put in gear.<br /> 1 Before starting at all ,turn flywheel by hand and get a feel for the resistance.Check again by hand after engine is warm and compare. <br /> 2 Remove plugs after warmed and stall situation and see if they appear wet or dry.<br /> 3 Check spark after warm with both leads removed from plugs and while cranking engine over insure that leads will arc to ground 7/16 to 1/2 inch with bright blue spark.If you don't have a remote starter set-up just have an assistant turn over engine with key.<br /><br />If you have a solenoid primer ,I was thinking that maybe it is leaking by.At higher speeds the fuel would be used and burned.Also insure that carb flaps are fully closed when in nuetral.I read that you have already inspected the roller setting.

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Ok, this is my progress.<br /><br />1. Rotated flywheel by hand when cold and when stalling problem occurs. There was little difference. <br /><br />2. I bought a "High Tension Iignition Tester" which sits between the spark plug and spark lead. It's got a see-through plastic bulb and when the spark fires, you can see the spark. Little difference was noticed between engine cold or warm. I didn't do the spark plug on the block trick. Do I need to do this? My thinking was that the Ignition Tester would be more accurate.<br /><br />3. I thought there was something I forgot. Forgot to check whether sparks were wet or dry. Damn, I will try this tonight.<br /><br />From points 1 and 2, have I gotten closer to solving problem?

 

[ob]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

John , you're doing a good job.Did you note the distance of the arc of the plug wires during spark test?Spark should jump 1/2" gap at cranking speed with engine cold or warm.

 

[Solittle]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

John - I have read all of these and I still think your problem may be in the carbs. When you cleaned them did you replace any of those small plugs and clean behind them? Did you use high pressure compressed air to blow out the tiny passages that you can't see?

 

[ob]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

I agree Solittle, That's why I'm concerned as to the plug condition at the point at which engine stalls after warm.If it's not carb related the only other thing that comes to mind is exhaust leak under cowl.Chasing these intermittent problems can be a doosy when you can't see or touch them.

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

I have cleaned the carbs out twice, but not with compressed air. I don't have a compressor. Nor did I replace any of the small jets or orifices, just cleaned them. Will this make a big difference? I blew into the holes as hard as I could(No smart remarks here guys). Ok, so there's gotta be a formal way of cleaning carbs. This is how I did it. Correct me if I'm doing anything wrong.<br /><br />1. Pull carbs apart.<br />2. Remove all gaskets, washers, plastic etc<br />3. Spray carb cleaner into jets & orifices while carb is in a small bucket<br />4. Keep spraying in and around carb until carb is immersed in carb cleaner.<br />5. Let it sit for 1 day immersed in carb cleaner.<br />6. Then drain and blow out with compressed air.<br />7. Rebuild with carb rebuild kit. <br /><br />I've done points 1 to 5 & 7, but not 6. Anything else I should be doing?<br /><br />If it was my carbs though, wouldn't I be getting this problem even when cold? What changes in the carbs when cold or hot?

 

[alcan]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Hi John<br />With respects to you and all the guys helping out here. I can't help but think this is one of those simple little problems. Here are some of my thoughts.You say this thing runs fine until you get to the dock and try to load onto trailer. The motor does start and run fine when warm. Only when you shift at slow speed the motor dies. Now with a warm motor if you restart, shift to forward and gun it, will it die? I'm thinking you may have something loose or rubbing under the flywheel.Are you sure the remote controls are adjusted correctly? Do you return the warm-up leaver to the run position before shifting? Have you phyisicly inspected all electrical connections? (pin plugs,bus bar,control box) I believe your motor is equipt with a seleniod actuated elect. choke. Is it funtioning properly? You did note that if left to idle dockside it would start to run a little ruff. Maybe there is a pinhole leak in the fuel pump diaphram. Try this test, with engine cold, warm up the power-pac with a hair drier to see if it will act up. Perform the same test on the coils. I'll be the first to admitt to being hung up for months trying to solve a problem, only to find the most simple darn thing.

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Alcan, all advise is welcome, you are not offending anybody. <br /><br />If I start engine when warm and I gun it, 1 out of 3 or 4 times, engine nearly stalls, but gets passed the stalling point and I am able to take off. Unfortunately though, I can't gun it up onto the trailer, otherwise the boat will end up on the roof of my car. After about 6 or 7 attempts of stalling & starting, I can get it close enough to the trailer where a friend is waiting so I can throw a rope to him, before engine stalls again. Not just stressful, but embarassing, especially on a busy ramp!<br /><br />1. Remote controls - How do I check if these are adjusted correctly.<br />2. Warm-up leaver - I can't put into gear with warm-up leaver up, it has to be down, otherwise it won't shift.<br />3. Electrical connection inspection - Everything visible has been checked.<br />4. Seleniod actuated elect. choke - How do I know I have one? Never come across it in manual.<br />5. Fuel pump diaphram - Should I be rebuilding my fuel pump. Looks as if it is pretty new.<br />6. Power pack - Is that the plastic covered rectangular box stuck to the side of my motor? Can I get to coils without removing coils?

 

[ob]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

John, You can locate coils by tracing your plug leads to them.They'll be one for each cylinder.Now look at the small leads on the coils and trace them to the powerpack.Solenoid primer is a cylindrical black unit that will generally be equipped with a manual lever(red in color) that should be in the off position(inline with the profile of the primer solenoid assy.)It should be located in the area of the lower carb near throttle linkage.There are two small fuel lines attached to solenoid primer ,one leading to it and one exiting to carb body.

 

[alcan]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Hi John<br /> Wow, lets see if I can answer these questions in a linear fashion.<br /> 1 Remote control, This should be coverd in your manual. If not post your Email address and I'll send you the chapter.<br /> 2 Warm-up lever, good that's how it should be.<br /> 3 Electrical, Good. <br /> 4 electric choke, we may have a problem here. How do you choke or prime this motor to start it?<br /> 5 Fuel pump, The fuel pump on your model is not repairable. They have to be replaced. But wait until it is proven bad before replacing. Do make sure it's thight with a good gasket to the block.<br /> 6 power-pac and ignit. coils, yes the power-pac is the rectanglur box. The ignit coils are attached to the block also. They have the plug wires coming out. Ok how about the stator plate (armature plate)under the flywheel. Check this before doing the heat(warm)tests.<br />The choke thing concerns me because after all that carb cleaning this should be a given. Lets get this cleared up first.

 

[OBJ]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Guys...just a thought from left field. Could we be looking at a bad spark plug? I'm sure JohnM has put new plugs in but I have, on a couple occasions, gotten bad plugs right out of the box. A bad plug almost fits the scenerio.<br /><br />OBJim

 

[johnm]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Ok, found some time to work on the engine. Have done the following:<br /><br />1. Replaced Spark Plugs(again) and then checked spark plugs when engine warm. Neither dry or wet, in between if you know what I mean.<br /><br />2. Remote Control - Have not tested. Alcan, can you please send me the chapter. Email address is johnm@syncsoft.com.au<br /><br />3. Electric choke - There is a button that sits on the ignition which I press when starting the engine. It closes the butterflys and primes the engine automatically. Obviously key is in and ignition turned to make this happen. Seems to be working fine. Can I check anything here?<br /><br />4. Fuel Pump - Looks relatively new. Filter is clean as a whistle. Tightly screwed on.<br /><br />5. Power-pac and ignition coils - All cables look fine. Warmed these up with hair dryer when engine cold. Engine still ran fine for 15 minutes or so until it warmed up. Then had same issue.<br /><br />6. Armature plate - Cables are in good condition and generally looks ok. Do I need to take off flywheel to check properly?<br /><br />7. Got the boat going in gear a little longer this time round by adjusting idle screw a bit more than I should of I think. Each time I put in gear, the engine clunks loudly as if somethings gonna pop out.<br /><br />My carbs are also sitting in carb cleaner at the moment and have been for the last two days. There is a blueish mist coming off my jets and leaking out of the orrifices. Is this eating my carbs away!!! I will use the air compressor tomorrow to clean out this residue.<br /><br />Anyway, that is the status at the moment. Feel free to comment if I have missed anything.<br /><br />Oh yes, I forgot to mention, there is water in my gear case. I love boating. Anyway, I'm gonna start a new thread soon, but I need to focus on getting this problem fixed first. One step at a time.

 

[rudeafrican]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Nice going there John, I'm almost sure you'll lick the problem with the carbs being thoroughly cleaned. Just don't do what I did once and followed Sloopy's advice on putting carbs in the dishwasher. Man, I've never seen aluminum corode so fast. Matter of hour or 2 and my carbs were covered in white "rust"!

 

[Bear]

Re: Carbs didn't look dirty! Is this normal?

Hi JohnM<br />I enjoyed reading this thread. Lots of good advise and you are doing good. Hang in there.<br /><br />If I got it right your engine is running good when it is cold, all rpms. When it is warm all rpms except when you put it in gear. It stalls.<br />So you can keep it running at wot (wide open throttle) for a long period (10-20 minutes ore more), cruising at say 4-4500 rpms and also at 2000 rpms for a long period (at least 5 minutes).<br />I belive that rules out fuel bad fuel pump diaphram, bad coils, a stuck needle valve in one of the carbs, etc.<br /><br />How about the carb gaskets, any possible air leaks? Guess not.<br /><br />I think you have too low compression when warm. Try a decarb <br />(Just one more de-carb link.)<br /><br />How about the thermostat? Stuck open? Actually running too cold for idle? I don't think that is the problem, but did you check it?<br /><br />Now let us know if the carb cleaning did make any difference before you try the decarbonize procedure. <br />One step at the time...