Breaking News(abuse)

90skichallenger

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Apr 18, 2005
Messages
234
Re: Breaking News(abuse)

As a active duty soldier, I am personally ashamed of the actions those soldiers comitted. They were totaaly against the law of land warfare that we are instructed in several times a year. She knew what she was doing was wrong, Heck she wasnt even supposed to be back there. Her and the other soldiers involved in this fiasco should be punished. Does the punishment fit the crime...No, I think that what they are handing out is too severe. they are getting more time than a murderer does. But that is due to the international attention this has garnered and I agree with others that an officer should be in there, because if a soldier does wrong it is the commanders responsibility for failing to provide proper oversight and training. We must hold ourselves to a higher standard than those we fight, otherwise we simply turn ouselves into them and no longer have the moral high ground.<br />Anyway, just one soldiers opinion.<br />and thanks for yall's support of our troops from every country of the coalition.<br /> :cool:
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 25, 2002
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17,651
Re: Breaking News(abuse)

But "some" here thinks it's alright for them to behead people, blow people up, and rape people, but it is wrong to have one with a leash around their neck?<br /><br />Something is very wrong with that picture.<br /><br />And thanks 90ski for helping in keeping this a place where we can say what we want, well almost what we want.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Breaking News(abuse)

well I am trying to check on the actual"conviction" rate of the prisoners. seems most have been cleared of any terrorist activity and most likly the rest will be as well. just seems a bit odd that our demigod admin types love the freedom of democracy yet take so much from others. yes Prisons are bad places, however most in prison have been CONVICTED by a jury, tainted sometimes but never the convicted. not turned in by a jealous guy down the street or someone trying to curry a favor and telling a story. seems we went to war over a good story teller type informant.<br /> myself as a retired military person I am sickened by the actions of or soldiers involved but more sickened that the soldiers who ordered it and the civilians that dreamed it up are still free as well. seems its happened at some other prisons as well. <br /> as far as the beheadings and such that the Iraqi whatevers have done, thats supposed to be the difference between us and saddam. if we act just like saddam then why did we take him out?<br /> I guess its to bad Darfur has no oil or we would help them as well.<br /> I would like to see more news coverage on the good and moral people we have there. but we are in the wrong country for the wrong reasons with the wrong battle plan and eventually it will backfire. I just hoipe saddam gets a public trail and is allowed to speak :) . I know he has some stories to tell. and maybe he will get a fair trail before he is placed in a cell someplace.
 

Tinkerer II

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Joined
May 2, 2005
Messages
17
Re: Breaking News(abuse)

Originally posted by SBN:<br /> But "some" here thinks it's alright for them to behead people, blow people up, and rape people, but it is wrong to have one with a leash around their neck?<br /><br />
I've never seen anyone here express that opinion and I doubt anyone holds it. I certainly don't. <br /><br />It's possible for people like me to object to everything that is wrong regardless of who does it. Other people want to work on the basis that every instance of wrong by the other side requires retaliation but we'll ignore the home team's misdeeds.<br /><br />It's not as wrong to humiliate someone with a leash around their neck, or force them to simulate homosexual sex with other captives or attack them with dogs, as it is to behead a captive or even to take them hostage. But it is still wrong. And the people who do it have to be dealt with. <br /><br />As should be the people who ordered it and participated in it in any way, which reaches right up to Rumsfeld for sure. Like that's going to happen!
 

Tinkerer II

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Joined
May 2, 2005
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Re: Breaking News(abuse)

Originally posted by 90skichallenger:<br /> We must hold ourselves to a higher standard than those we fight, otherwise we simply turn ouselves into them and no longer have the moral high ground.<br />
And that says it all.<br /><br />Rather than complaining about the treatment England etc are receiving and trying to minimise their guilt it by pointing to irrelevant wrongs committed by the other side, it would be better to be proud that England etc are being dealt with by properly constituted courts martial under a properly constituted legal system which reflects the high moral principles that stand for everything the thugs in Iraq and elsewhere don't.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: Breaking News(abuse)

I give up on this one.<br />The poor girl ain't even all there is what they are saying now. My next question is how people like this gets in the military in the first place? That is kinda scary to think about also. Wonder what other kinds of mental disorders there is floating around in our armed forces?<br /><br />EDIT: From her school psychologist;<br />A school psychologist from Mineral County, W.Va., who worked with England when she was a child, testified that she was oxygen-deprived at birth, speech impaired, and had trouble learning to read.<br /><br />Thomas Denne said England’s learning disabilities were identified when she was a kindergartner, and though she made progress in school, she continued needing special attention.<br /><br />“I knew I was going to know Lynndie England for the rest of my life,” Denne said.<br /><br />When asked by Pohl whether England knew right from wrong, Denne said she had a compliant personality and tended to listen to authority figures.<br /><br />Rick Hernandez, a defense lawyer, said the psychologist’s testimony helped England by establishing that her ability to reason was lower than that of her comrades.<br /><br />“She is clearly in a different mental capacity... than any of the others accused,” he said.<br /><br />Now I ask, what are the guidelines for getting in the service, just being able to walk and talk and your in or what?
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Breaking News(abuse)

well I am trying to find more facts but there was an article in todays VA pilot about the army recruiting practices and how the recruiters are taking anyone, even a guy fresh from a 3 week stay in a mental hospital, and trying to sneak them in to make a quota. <br /> I also caught the tail end of something about the Judge threw out part of Pvt Englands guilty ple. in the military,esp as an E-3 or below, to be proven guilty they have to show you were not acting under orders from a higher authority. I know as an E-1 I did not hardly breathe without an E-6 telling me whether to inhale or exhale. the E-3 and below personnel are just not given the kind of responsibility she thought she had and the non-coms should have escorted her out or at least modified her behavoir to conform to military standards. so while her behavoir is still sickening I can give a wide leeway to her actual position of authority or lack of. yes we had some serious wackos in the navy when I was in. used to wonder which was more dangerous them or an outside enemy.
 

Tinkerer II

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Joined
May 2, 2005
Messages
17
Re: Breaking News(abuse)

These are my kind of guys.<br /><br />Extracts from http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...nate-judiciary-committee-letter_03jan2005.htm <br /><br />We, the undersigned, are retired professional military leaders of the U.S. Armed Forces. We write to express our deep concern about the nomination of Alberto R. Gonzales to be Attorney General, and to urge you to explore in detail his views concerning the role of the Geneva Conventions in U.S. detention and interrogation policy and practice. <br /><br />Repeatedly in our past, the United States has confronted foes that, at the time they emerged, posed threats of a scope or nature unlike any we had previously faced. But we have been far more steadfast in the past in keeping faith with our national commitment to the rule of law. During the Second World War, General Dwight D. Eisenhower explained that the allies adhered to the law of war in their treatment of prisoners because “the Germans had some thousands of American and British prisoners and I did not want to give Hitler the excuse or justification for treating our prisoners more harshly than he already was doing.” In Vietnam, U.S. policy required that the Geneva Conventions be observed for all enemy prisoners of war – both North Vietnamese regulars and Viet Cong – even though the Viet Cong denied our own prisoners of war the same protections. And in the 1991 Persian Gulf War, the United States afforded Geneva Convention protections to more than 86,000 Iraqi prisoners of war held in U.S. custody. The threats we face today – while grave and complex – no more warrant abandoning these basic principles than did the threats of enemies past. <br /><br />Perhaps most troubling of all, the White House decision to depart from the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan went hand in hand with the decision to relax the definition of torture and to alter interrogation doctrine accordingly. Mr. Gonzales’ January 2002 memo itself warned that the decision not to apply Geneva Convention standards “could undermine U.S. military culture which emphasizes maintaining the highest standards of conduct in combat, and could introduce an element of uncertainty in the status of adversaries.” <br /><br />Yet Mr. Gonzales then made that very recommendation with reference to Afghanistan, a policy later extended piece by piece to Iraq. Sadly, the uncertainty Mr. Gonzales warned about came to fruition. As James R. Schlesinger’s panel reviewing Defense Department detention operations concluded earlier this year, these changes in doctrine have led to uncertainty and confusion in the field, contributing to the abuses of detainees at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, and undermining the mission and morale of our troops. <br /><br />The full extent of Mr. Gonzales’ role in endorsing or implementing the interrogation practices the world has now seen remains unclear. A series of memos that were prepared at his direction in 2002 recommended official authorization of harsh interrogation methods, including waterboarding, feigned suffocation, and sleep deprivation. As with the recommendations on the Geneva Conventions, these memos ignored established U.S. military policy, including doctrine prohibiting “threats, insults, or exposure to inhumane treatment as a means of or aid to interrogation.” Indeed, the August 1, 2002 Justice Department memo analyzing the law on interrogation references health care administration law more than five times, but never once cites the U.S. Army Field Manual on interrogation. The Manual was the product of decades of experience – experience that had shown, among other things, that such interrogation methods produce unreliable results and often impede further intelligence collection. Discounting the Manual’s wisdom on this central point shows a disturbing disregard for the decades of hard-won knowledge of the professional American military. <br /><br />The United States’ commitment to the Geneva Conventions – the laws of war – flows not only from field experience, but also from the moral principles on which this country was founded, and by which we all continue to be guided. We have learned first hand the value of adhering to the Geneva Conventions and practicing what we preach on the international stage.<br /><br />Signed<br /><br />Brigadier General David M. Brahms (Ret. USMC) <br />Brigadier General James Cullen (Ret. USA) <br />Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote (Ret. USA) <br />Lieutenant General Robert Gard (Ret. USA) <br />Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (Ret. USN) <br />Rear Admiral Don Guter (Ret. USN) <br />General Joseph Hoar (Ret. USMC) <br />Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN) <br />Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy (Ret. USA) <br />General Merrill McPeak (Ret. USAF) <br />Major General Melvyn Montano (Ret. USA Nat. Guard) <br />General John Shalikashvili (Ret. USA) <br /><br />Brigadier General David M. Brahms (Ret. USMC) <br /><br />General Brahms served in the Marine Corps from 1963-1988. He served as the Marine Corps' senior legal adviser from 1983 until his retirement in 1988. General Brahms currently practices law in Carlsbad, California and sits on the board of directors of the Judge Advocates Association. <br /><br />Brigadier General James Cullen (Ret. USA) <br /><br />General Cullen is a retired Brigadier General in the United States Army Reserve Judge Advocate General's Corps and last served as the Chief Judge (IMA) of the U.S. Army Court of Criminal Appeals. He currently practices law in New York City. <br /><br />Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote (Ret. USA) <br /><br />General Foote was Commanding General of Fort Belvoir in 1989. She was recalled to active duty in 1996 to serve as Vice Chair of the Secretary of the Army's Senior Review Panel on Sexual Harassment. She is President of the Alliance for National Defense, a non-profit organization. <br /><br />Lieutenant General Robert Gard (Ret. USA) <br /><br />General Gard is a retired Lieutenant General who served in the United States Army; his military assignments included combat service in Korea and Vietnam. He is currently a consultant on international security and president emeritus of the Monterey Institute for International Studies. <br /><br />Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (Ret. USN) <br /><br />Admiral Gunn served as the Inspector General of the Department of the Navy until his retirement in August 2000. Admiral Gunn commanded the USS BARBEY and the Destroyer Squadron “Thirty-one,” a component of the U.S. Navy's Anti-Submarine Warfare Destroyer Squadrons. <br /><br />Rear Admiral Don Guter (Ret. USN) <br /><br />Admiral Guter served as the Navy’s Judge Advocate General from 2000 to 2002. Admiral Guter is currently CEO of Vinson Hall Corporation/Executive Director of the Navy Marine Coast Guard Residence Foundation in McLean, Virginia. <br /><br />General Joseph Hoar (Ret. USMC) <br /><br />General Hoar served as Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Central Command. After the first Gulf War, General Hoar led the effort to enforce the naval embargo in the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf, and to enforce the no-fly zone in the south of Iraq. He oversaw the humanitarian and peacekeeping operations in Kenya and Somalia and also led the U.S. Marine Corps support for operations in Rwanda, and the evacuation of U.S. civilians from Yemen during the 1994 civil war. He was the Deputy for Operations for the Marine Corps during the Gulf War and served as General Norman Schwarzkopf's Chief of Staff at Central Command. General Hoar currently runs a consulting business in California. <br /><br />Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN) <br /><br />Admiral John D. Hutson served as the Navy's Judge Advocate General from 1997 to 2000. Admiral Hutson now serves as President and Dean of the Franklin Pierce Law Center in Concord, New Hampshire. He is scheduled to testify on Jan. 6 or 7 before the Senate Judiciary Committee on the nomination of White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General. <br /><br />Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (Ret. USA) <br /><br />General Kennedy is the first and only woman to achieve the rank of three-star general in the United States Army. Kennedy served as Deputy Chief of Staff for Army Intelligence, Commander of the U.S. Army Recruiting Command, and as Commander of the 703d military intelligence brigade in Kunia, Hawaii. <br /><br />General Merrill A. McPeak (Ret. USAF) <br /><br />General McPeak served as the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force. Previously, General McPeak served as Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Air Forces. He is a command pilot, having flown more than 6,000 hours, principally in fighter aircraft. <br /><br />Major General Melvyn Montano (Ret. USA Nat. Guard) <br /><br />General Montano was the adjutant general in charge of the National Guard in New Mexico from 1994 to 1999. He served in Vietnam and was the first Hispanic Air National Guard officer appointed as an adjutant general in the country. <br /><br />General John Shalikashvili (Ret. USA) <br /><br />General Shalikashvili was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (Department of Defense) from 1993 till 1997. Prior to serving as Chairman, he served as NATO's Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, and also as the commander-in-chief of the United States European Command. He was until recently a visiting professor at The Stanford Institute for International Studies.
 
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