Bought my first boat to cut, gut and rebuild from bow to stern, including engine. Killed my back and suffered the wrath of the fiberglass demons

[TripleJGraffis]

Looking for some advice once again on a new motor. I have toned it down on the search for one, as I know I have more work to do on the boat before worrying about a motor. The only reason I am posting this is because some of you said that if I found a decent deal, that I should jump on it only then. I did reach out to a gentleman on craigslist weeks ago and he just responded while I was on vacation.

Here is the correspondence so far for the most part. He has been talking back and forth giving me helpful information, so I figured I could share it with you all to see if you can help me make an educated decision as to whether this guy is potentially legit or just trying to make a quick dollar.

ME: Hello. I have what appears to be an 85hp 1989 marine power force outboard motor. It came dismantled because the old owner wanted to bore it out himself but decided to sell it with the boat I purchased from him.. He says that is all it needs as well as new pistons and rings. Do you do this kind of work?

HIM: I would like nothing more than to do the work for you, however just so you know the expanse will coast you way more than that engine is worth. Pistons are over 100 each, plus wrist pins, bearings gaskets and machine work, it's going to get costly in a hurry if I had to guess it would be in the 1500 to 2000 range. Being in the business I don't do a half ass job, I won't cheapen up a rebuild, it only comes back to haunt. And the best you end up with is a 35pluss old outboard that wasn't very good when it was new. According to my books that engine is 1984-89. I suggest finding a good used engine

ME: Thanks! Appreciate the honesty! Do you have any recommendations on where I can find one?

HIM: What is the boat rated for, what is the budget you would like to stay in, I'm sure I could find you something

ME: It is a 1989 Maxum 1700XR I am completely restoring it and might have to rebuild the transom. The boat is currently rated for no larger than 85hp, so I would like to stick to that size. That’s what I currently have. Right now, I would like to stay under 1000.00 if I can find something decent, but I know that is a far stretch. I don’t have the money currently. I am just exploring options currently as a new motor will not be needed until closer to the completion of the boat, which should give me ample time to save up and find a decent used motor.

HIM: I'll keep my eyes open, thinking that a 85hp 4 cylinder mercury may fit the bill. They are great running engine's there is a ton of parts available for them and are way better than the force ever was

ME: Agreed. Every search I do leads me back to one of those. So question….I am going into this resto with zero knowledge and learning as I go. 2 stroke is basically oil and gas mix, and 4 stroke is straight up gas, correct? Is there a weight difference?

HIM:
Two stroke you run premix oil in gas roughly at a 50 to 1 ratio 50parts fuel one part oil. About a pint of pit to 6gals of gas. Never run nothing but premium gas, regulator gas has alcohol in it and that is no good in a marine environment because the alcohol will absorb water which can destroy a motor.

4 stock you run straight gas again nothing but premium. The engine has a oil sump filter and needs oil changes much like a car. The difference is a 2stock is much lighter, can run higher Rev s and is way simpler. But they have higher emissions than the 4storke

Even used 4stroks are way more costly then a 2stoke. And a older boat that was designed for a 2stoke my have trouble with the extra weight of the 4stroke of the same HP. New boats are built with way more beam to address this, beam is the with of the boat at the stern

HIM: Well I may have a engine coming in on a trade that may be of interest to you. A guy is wanting to trade in on a engine I have. It's a 85 HP Mercury 4-cylinder. I'll let you know more when and if it gets here if you are interested

HIM: I took that moto in, it's a 4-cylinder 2 stroke, I didn't run it yet but here is what I know. I had great compression 145 on my gauge even on all for cylinders. The engine has been in storage and moved around for many years, so the appearance needs worked, new paint and new decals would go a long way to make it look really nice. A new set of reproduction decals would set you back around $65 off E-bay I don't have a controls for it, but again E-bay or I could possibly make the Force setup you have work. And the engine never had power trim on it, but again I could find you a setup for it. I have $750 into it, and as is that's what I would sell it to you for. If it gets it running, put a new fuel pump in it, put power trim on it, and include a set of controls I would have to get $1250 for it. I will not be painting it, just don't have the tin or space to do that stuff

HIM: Forgot to say that it's has awesome spark on all cylinders.

HIM: It should have said water pump, not fuel pump. Hate autocorrect

I did ask him for some photos is he has any, but as far as this goes, he does seem to know what he's talking about....What do you all think? Is it a deal worth taking or should I keep searching?

 

[TripleJGraffis]

Personally, I wouldn't consider rebuilding a boat and not replacing foam. That stuff could literally save your life (and the lives of any guests) should things go south.

I never understand when people question the need for flotation foam when rebuilding.

In my opinion, and in my case, there is a fairly simple reason as to asking not only questions about foam, but any question in general..... I am going into this restoration project with zero knowledge of boats and learning as I go. That one specific spot in general, I had assumed that there was no foam. I was under the assumption that foam was only located below deck level, not above it, so I was questioning if that space actually needed it or if it may be overkill and if I can use it for extra space. But as I read more insight into it, it is probably in my best interest to put foam back into the void upon rebuild.

 

[stresspoint]

you are correct , most foam is located in the lower part of hulls , however in some cases it is put into obscure places , so be aware when chopping it out that it was probably put there from the manufacture for a reason IE dampening to stop rattles , to filling voids , to cover ugly spiky fiberglass lay up sometimes even for floatation.
your boat has been hacked at so who knows where it is meant to have foam and where it has just been put there by the PO , my Maxum SR1800 only has fam under the floor in the sides and a bit around where the engine mount pads are (mercruiser 4.3 inboard) .
it might pay to look at other boats in the category and age of your boat to get a better understanding of where foam should be.

you will be wanting to know at this point how much foam you will need so as you can add to the materials list "" which i hope you have started by now ???"".
quality foam is expensive and as has been posted is essential part of the reconstruction.

on the subject of the motor , you are going to get all sorts of offers , scammers and sometimes even genuine people, some trying to lump there old clapped out motors onto a self confessed newby .
you will know when the time is right to begin that stage of the challenge.
meantime use the time to educate yourself on what you want and need .

 

[Lou C]

Boston Whaler Key West & Everglades among others here in the USA advertise full foam flotation as a safety feature. I don’t have experience with these brands long term although you hear stories of foam filled boats absorbing moisture & gaining weight.
Btw when I pulled the foam out of my boat in 2006 it was not saturated by any means just the last 1/2” that was closest to the hull was wet. I didn’t do this then but here’s a suggestion, if you want to go back with foam using epoxy to coat the stringers will protect them more that only using polyester. Poly resin is no where near as water proof as epoxy.

 

[Lou C]

And one of my pet peeves because I live in a damp climate is carpet over a wood cored deck. It causes rot because it will never dry out when it gets wet. The first thing I did was throw out all that carpet. The deck was coated in non skid gel coat and it’s still solid 17 years later. Boat is always outside inside storage here in crowded LI is not an option so it’s covered all winter with a breathable cover & with Sunbrella covers during the season. I’d never ever have a small open boat with carpet! All the rot started under the seat mounts esp at the screw holes so those need to be sealed in 4200 at least, better yet would be to over drill the hole fill with a thickened epoxy plug and then drill the hole for the screw into that.

 

[TripleJGraffis]

ahhh ,WTF on board my ski boat ,i just throw a heap of those old orange or yellow life jackets under the deck , serves 2 proposes , 1 , there is always enough jackets to go around ,2 , the buoyancy in the nose of the boat will help find it when 3/4 of the boat is under water.
no other buoyancy in that boat , however , its only used on inland lakes and rivers.it has never seen an ocean or salt water..
it does have a 500GPH bilge pump on a float switch that will get it too land before it fills with water enough to sink it.
the boat was never built with foam , it did have a sealed bulk head up front under the deck but i chopped a big hole to allow water skis and stuff to be stored out of the way.

now that being said : i have seen boats with full floatation foam gunwale deep in the water and still sinking , foam water logged , all the crap people carry aboard and compartments filled with sea water is no match for the foam that is still" buoyant".

Noted. Thank you!

 

[TripleJGraffis]

continued from last post : there was an experiment done by one of the members on THT forum where they tested all grades of pourable foams V older foam that was exposed to UV ,V, waterlogged foam .

cant remember the exact outcome , but from memory all foams were found to be not that good respective of the weight /floatation expectations when exposed to water for longer periods IE: a few days was enough to absorb enough water to render most foam useless

OP choose wisely when using pourable foam , a little bit of water seepage and some of it is like a sponge.

this is what happens in most cases : someone drills a hole , water gets in , foam stays wet , foam deteriorates , foam becomes a sponge.

Is there any recommendations on a good foam? Is there a good pourable closed cell foam that would work well?

 

[TripleJGraffis]

you are correct , most foam is located in the lower part of hulls , however in some cases it is put into obscure places , so be aware when chopping it out that it was probably put there from the manufacture for a reason IE dampening to stop rattles , to filling voids , to cover ugly spiky fiberglass lay up sometimes even for floatation.
your boat has been hacked at so who knows where it is meant to have foam and where it has just been put there by the PO , my Maxum SR1800 only has fam under the floor in the sides and a bit around where the engine mount pads are (mercruiser 4.3 inboard) .
it might pay to look at other boats in the category and age of your boat to get a better understanding of where foam should be.

you will be wanting to know at this point how much foam you will need so as you can add to the materials list "" which i hope you have started by now ???"".
quality foam is expensive and as has been posted is essential part of the reconstruction.

on the subject of the motor , you are going to get all sorts of offers , scammers and sometimes even genuine people, some trying to lump there old clapped out motors onto a self confessed newby .
you will know when the time is right to begin that stage of the challenge.
meantime use the time to educate yourself on what you want and need .

I have not started a materials list as far as writing down a hard copy of one. I know eventually I will need foam, for the hull as well as for the seats, upholstery, some 3/4 inch and 1/2 inch plywood, as well as different types of fiberglass. When it comes time to needing all those things, I would do my homework and make sure what I need and how much....Or is there a better way to go about this?

 

[Scott Danforth]

foam is added where ever the original builder needed to add it to keep the boat floating enough to pass the testing.

for example, my boat has foam in the cabin, under the gunwales, in the boxes around the motor, the aft swim deck, and under the deck in some areas.

my prior boats had compartments around the motor, under the deck, under the gunwale caps, and the whole underside of the bow area foamed (cap was foamed prior to mating to the hull).

I have not started a materials list as far as writing down a hard copy of one. I know eventually I will need foam, for the hull as well as for the seats, upholstery, some 3/4 inch and 1/2 inch plywood, as well as different types of fiberglass. When it comes time to needing all those things, I would do my homework and make sure what I need and how much....Or is there a better way to go about this?

regarding materials, I bought wood twice, fiberglass resin 4 times, gel twice and I bought about double the 1708 that I thought I would need. that does not include the upholstery which I basically did twice.

 

[redneck joe]

that merc sounds like a deal, prob needs carb work. Compression is key, as is sark. My new spark box cost over $300. If h gets it running and still is around the $1000 mark - look into it.

 

[TripleJGraffis]

Looking for some advice once again on a new motor. I have toned it down on the search for one, as I know I have more work to do on the boat before worrying about a motor. The only reason I am posting this is because some of you said that if I found a decent deal, that I should jump on it only then. I did reach out to a gentleman on craigslist weeks ago and he just responded while I was on vacation.

Here is the correspondence so far for the most part. He has been talking back and forth giving me helpful information, so I figured I could share it with you all to see if you can help me make an educated decision as to whether this guy is potentially legit or just trying to make a quick dollar.

HIM: I'm a the hospital until later this afternoon, the engine is a 1981, and has been in storage for the last 15+ years so it very low hours. I will get you some pictures of it later today. These engines are very good runners and there is a ton of parts available for them both new and used. Kinda over built meaning built very strong. If you can live without power trim, I would sell you the engine with new pump installed for $950. As for trading in the Force sorry I wouldn't take it if you gave it to me for free, I just don't and won't work on the and have absolutely no need for any parts of it, sorry

As you can see paint will help it a lot, for the price I'm offering it at, I will get it running, make sure it pumps water and cools properly and run it in my test tank, no painting, no installing, as is no warranty, but I will help you within reason if a problem comes up. This is a used engine and I'm selling it as such. As for power trim, that's something that you could add later down the road when you get the funds

What do you all think?

 

[briangcc]

Lemme prefix my response with the following....I'm 50 in a few months, first boat is in my signature with the Rude Big Twin 30 which did not have any power trim/tilt.

I would not own a boat without power trim/tilt. It's a deal breaker.

As for personal experience with Merc in my family/extended family - my Force was replaced 1 year into ownership with a Honda. It literally had just over break in hours on it, it was THAT bad. My uncle replaced a Merc outboard with a Yammie a few years into ownership. In my family, Merc isn't it. Some people swear by them....I swear at them.

And yes, I realize the irony having a Merc I/O in my current boat - shift interrupter is an idiotic feature in this day/age. Volvo around me is dead so its Merc or nothing. Next boat is an outboard either Honda or Yammie.

 

[stresspoint]

anyone correct me if i am wrong here ,from memory ?? , that motor was never fitted with PTT , possibly a PTT unit from another model may be adapted.
PTT is a necessity on any boat IMHO , buying a motor with no PTT is going to be a big let down.

take a look at some V4 Johnsons / Evinrude's , they are cheap and parts are readily available .
as an example of the availability , i have 2 of them here , one in parts one a good runner PTT on both.
also plenty people here that know these motors inside and out, the V4 motors were produced over many years in ranging HP

 

[redneck joe]

gotta have power trim. Ask him what he thinks would it cost to add now. If too much, ask him to keep looking.

This is my second merc, all in my family growing up was OMC (johnson / evinrude) so really had no history but my Black Max 150 did well for me, most of it at WOT. This one needed some work but i found someone (FINALLY) that is reasonable and knowledgeable.

If I ever run across an 85 or so Merc, OMC, or yamaha lined up next to each other of the same vintage as mine, in good shape, I'd prob go Yamaha, OMC and merc in that order.

Focus on boat, the motor will happen.

 

[Scott Danforth]

both the OP and seller are within 30 minutes of Fond du Lac Wisconsin. Home of Mercury. most of the outboards you see in GB from the mid 80's was 65-70% Mercury, 30-33% Johnyrudes, then 1-2% others

 

[TripleJGraffis]

gotta have power trim. Ask him what he thinks would it cost to add now. If too much, ask him to keep looking.

This is my second merc, all in my family growing up was OMC (johnson / evinrude) so really had no history but my Black Max 150 did well for me, most of it at WOT. This one needed some work but i found someone (FINALLY) that is reasonable and knowledgeable.

If I ever run across an 85 or so Merc, OMC, or yamaha lined up next to each other of the same vintage as mine, in good shape, I'd prob go Yamaha, OMC and merc in that order.

Focus on boat, the motor will happen.

Yup, That's my primary focus. I was just reaching out to see if this was a decent deal or not or if I was getting played. He did say that he was willing to sell it for 1250 as is but in running shape with a new water pump, new power trim and new controls. If that is a decent deal, then I would want to jump on that so I am set there and then continue focusing on the boat.

 

[TripleJGraffis]

both the OP and seller are within 30 minutes of Fond du Lac Wisconsin. Home of Mercury. most of the outboards you see in GB from the mid 80's was 65-70% Mercury, 30-33% Johnyrudes, then 1-2% others

I actually am uncertain where the seller is located, aside from knowing that he is located in northeast Wisconsin. I am an hour from there. Did not know FDL is home of the Mercury though! Good to know!

 

[Scott Danforth]

Heck, I know guys that worked directly for Carl Kiekhaefer.

 

[TripleJGraffis]

Heck, I know guys that worked directly for Carl Kiekhaefer.

Dang! Now there's a little bit of history! LOL

 

[aspeck]

The $1250 seems like a decent price and he seems like he is willing to work with you. Growing up in the 60's we had a Merc of that vintage and it was indestructible. Then in the later 70's I bought a '72 (I believe) 40hp Merc. That was a piece of garbage. The dealer had a 20hp Merc of the same vintage. The 40 would break down and the dealer (and good friend) would trade out the 20 for the 40 while they worked on the 40. About the time the 20 would break down the 40 would be repaired. We swapped the motors back and forth for 2 summers (about 8 swaps) before I got tired of it and bought a 55hp Johnson. It was too much motor for the 16 foot Ouachita, but it sure was fun! Ran that till I was old enough to have a real, full time job and then bought my only NEW boat, a Skeeter bass boat with a Johnson 70. It didn't take long to trade the 70 in on a 75 with power trim and tilt. It was a must.

There you go, a long story to tell you decent deal, but power trim and tilt is a necessity and the 70's and early 80's Mercs were a bit sketchy, in my opinion. The older Mercs and the newer Mercs seem to be pretty solid, but mid 70's through early 80's ... well ??????