Are the French finally growing a pair?

Kiwi Phil · Jan 19, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Couldn't agree more QC. Make it Afghanistan. We all thought that a good idea back at the start. Everybody turned up. It is still the home of the Leaders. But in reality it is too late now. What is done is done. The question is: how the hxll do we get out of this mess leaving Iraq a stable and developed country, AND, being able to find and dispose of the real terrorists, AND, avoid Iran from developing nuclear weapons. Common sence and logic no longer seems to be one of our strengths. I guess it is going to take new leadership across a number of countries. As for the French. I am unsure if having them acting as a loose cannon is a problem to us, or an example we should follow. Lets be stupid for a moment. If French territory has hit by Iran with Nuke weapons, and the French immediately levelled Tehran with a handfull of Nukes, does that make them stupid and us smart, or the other way around. I personally am getting fed up with having to be understanding and tolerant and considerate. Cheers Phillip

Bondo · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Originally posted by PW2: It is a thinly veiled threat toward Iran (and potentially Pakistan) There *are* real threats in this world, and unlike what we faced in Iraq, are capable of inflicting real damage. You all seem to this we can be successful in this war on terror using a US against everyone else strategy. How's it going so far? We have Iran beligerent and attempting to get nukes, we have Pakistanis demonstrating against the US in the streets, already possessing nukes (We better hope Musharaf survives a long time) And who knows what is going on in North Korea. I would think we should go out of our way to line up as much help as we can.

Well,............ Lets See.......... The Taliban are Gone,+ there's a New Government in Afganistan............... Saddam is On Trail,+ there's a New Government in Iraq........... Libia has decided they really have no use for their little Nuclear program,+ has Come Clean....... Now,.. That's a Major Turn-around........ Ayuh,... Pressure for GW did That..... The Syrians are Out of Lebanon,.. Or at least Leaving,...... And,.... There'll be a Change of Power in Syria,... Soon I think,....... Again,...... Because of the Big Bad United States of America.............. Major Shake-ups in the governments of Many little countries around the Arab world,... Saudi Arabia,.. Yemen,.. Kuwait,.. Lebanon,.. Indonesia,..etc..... Even the Japanese have decided that They have to do More for World stability....... And,......... Lets not forget,........... Osama Binladen,+ Alquida now want to Negotiate a Peaceful Resolution......... Ya,.. Right.... Iran Has Been,+ Still is a Loose Cannon,..Since 1978.... Absolutely Nothing has "Changed" there....... North Korea has been Rattling their Boy Scout Knifes whenever they get Hungry,.. Since the 1950s........ Nothing really Different There Either........ And,..... Pakistan,..... They've Always Hated Us,..because We're so friendly with India...... The ONLY reason they happen to be our Allie Now,..... Is because GW told the World back in 01,... That You're either With Us,.... Or Against Us........ Ayuh,..... I say things are Going OK,.... Could be Better,... But it Ain't All that Bad........

KaGee · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

'Nuff said after that one!

QC · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Ayuh................

PW2 · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Well, let's see. Afghanistan is still the global leader in opium production, and the warlords are still in charge of much in the country. We did scatter the Taliban, however, but Osama is still alive and kicking. In Iraq, we have lost 2200+ Americans to date, with more every day, and yes they have a government of sorts--we'll see how it turns out--it could easily drop into all out civil war if we are not careful. Syria and Iran remain powder kegs and significant suppliers of terrorists and insurgent supplies into Iraq, and their very own survival depends on the failure of the Iraqi coalition gov't. Yes, Lybia does not have the huge oil revenue of the others, and needed trade to get their economy going. They had to get rid of the sanctions. Negotiations were going on long before 9/11, and Iraq had nothing to do with their decision. Iran is getting worse, and we have the bulk of our military occupied in Iraq, severely limiting our military options. And we are dependent upon the health of Musharraf in Pakistan, and he has already survived several assassination attempts--and they do have nukes All in all, a pretty tenuous situation in my view, and we need all the help we can get. You can delude yourself into the neo-con view that things are going great. It may work out that way, who knows? But is was a huge risk to take with limited options available and very little upside gain. Time will tell.

dogsdad · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

PW2, you choose to see a half-empty glass. If there was a democrat in the White House, you would see a half-full glass---in fact, I think you would insist the glass is full. Of champagne.

18rabbit · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

I see the world as more unstable now than any other time in my life. And the bad guys seem to be everywhere. We dont know who they are or how many there are. It seems PW2 is more correct, tho understated. I think Bondo has the optimistic view we are meant to have, but I think it is based more in propaganda than realism. Bondo - I dont think it is N Koreas Boy Scout knives the US military is worried about. The US to close down its military bases in S Korea and move to expanding bases in Japan. The US bases in S Korea were vulnerable to a big glowy bomb, not survivable.

jtexas · Jan 20, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Originally posted by Boomyal: 

Originally posted by jtexas: Why so hard to believe? Cause they didn't want to party with us in Iraq? You saw how swiftly and effectively they dealth with the riots in Paris, didn't ya?

Click to expand...

Give me a break JT. They didn't want to 'party' with us in Iraq because they had a vested financial interest that was going to be obliterated. Don't give the Frogs so much credit for discernment. They didn't have the same 'vested' financial interest in whacking the Neer-do-wells in their own country.

Sorry boomyal, for making my sarcasm a little too obscure...remember how the Paris riots went on for weeks?

PW2 · Jan 21, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Dogsdad wrote:> If there was a democrat in the White House, you would see a half-full glass---in fact, I think you would insist the glass is full. Of champagne.> That is of course incorrect. Party affiliation has nothing to do with my perception of this situation. What I would like to see aa "statesman" in the Whitehouse--there are potentially several republicans that could fit the bill---Colin Powell comes to mind. I believe in several fundamental concepts: 1. It is not possible to deal with radicals or fundamentalists of any stripe. 2. It is not possible to win this war on terror without winning the hearts and minds of the moderate Muslim community, and we have to explore ways where our separate goals can be compatible. 3. I think the vast majority of people of whatever religious beliefs would prefer to coexist in peace than the constant battles. 4. I think the free world community (Europe)understands it is in their best interests to come up with some plan that addresses each other's goals and ultimately marginalize the various radical groups. Now I know this will be difficult to achieve, progress may be measured in baby steps and may be uneven at times, and is going to take a lot of give and take. We will not get everything we want. But it is worth the effort and time. Military might alone, with a "You're either with us or agin us" attitude, is simply doomed to failure, IMHO.

dogsdad · Jan 21, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

1. You may be right about that one... 2. What the he!! good does it do to win the hearts and minds of the moderate Muslim community? They are not the fruitcakes who have vowed to destroy us! 3. You're probably corrct in that opinion. 4. The Europeans, by and large, are appeasers. Appeasement is an invitiation to annhilation. I think there are some important historical facts that back that up, should you care to research it. That's two outa four. Your glass is half full. Or should I say half empty?

technostingray · Jan 21, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Originally posted by jtexas: 

Originally posted by Boomyal: 

Originally posted by jtexas: Why so hard to believe? ...

Click to expand...

Sorry boomyal, for making my sarcasm a little too obscure...remember how the Paris riots went on for weeks?

Click to expand...

Shame on you jtexas, you know pointed sarcasm is frowned on and the point seldom recognized.

waterone1@aol.com · Jan 21, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Back to this thread: I wish the US would use the words of the French.....dear God...did I say that ? I think it speaks volumes when a nation that has multiple nukes say's "we might use them if the situation is right". In my opinion, every third world country is banking on the idea that the worlds super-powers will not use their nukes. Maybe, and I say maybe, it is time for the US and other countries to parade their nukes around and remind the rest of the world that we built them, we have them and if you screw with us bad enough....we just might use them. You can beg and plead with these folks all you want, they will only lie to you.....show them some force....they will back down.

PW2 · Jan 22, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

DD Winning the hearts and minds of the moderate Muslims is the key to the situation, as they are the only ones that can possibly marginalize the radicals...No manner of guns or western military presence will do that. As far as European appeasement, I think you are wrong. I think the Europeans have a vested interest in this that are compatible to ours. They may have different methods, but then that is what diplomacy is all about, of course. We simply cannot expect Europe to bow down to America, while we thumb our noses at what is important to them.

Haut Medoc · Jan 22, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

So Iran cannot have nukes, but we can use ours to threaten them? Who is the terrorist here? For the record, I don't think Iran needs nukes, but if someone were threatening me with a big stick, I would want one too....Or a bigger one.....Using the threat of nuclear attack as a tool to coerce "proper behavior", is just plain wrong.....JK

Elmer Fudge · Jan 22, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Whose war are we fighting in Afganistan and Iraq? What country was the largest benefactor due to us deposing Saddam Hussein? The answer to both questions is Iran. We allowed ourselves to be conned by the agents of Iran who are presently in political power in Iraq. Does the name Ahmed Chalibi ring a bell? This enabled the Iranians to persue their aim to clandestinly acquire nuclear technology. Iran does not and has not behaved in a responsible manner, which is in it self enough cause for it as a country to be denied the production of nuclear fuels. No one is saying to deny Iran of nuclear energy production, every country on earth has that right, but the diversion of fissile materials to produce nuclear weapons is not, should not and must not be allowed. The protection commonly envisaged in having such horrendous weapons is but a folly to those possess them on 21st century earth.

dogsdad · Jan 22, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

And I think you are wrong, PW2. So, Haut Medoc, I suppose you think America is wrong to be a superpower. I suppose you think that Iran should be allowed to eradicate the Israelis. And America should simply bow to the world. By that logic, every intellectual should voluntarily be lobotomized, and every sighted person should jab a sharp stick in his or her own two eyes. If you think America is guilty of terrorism, I think you should emigrate immediately so as not to sully your sinless nature.

18rabbit · Jan 22, 2006

Re: Are the French finally growing a pair?

Originally posted by waterone1: I wish the US would use the words of the French.....dear God...did I say that ? I think it speaks volumes when a nation that has multiple nukes say's "we might use them if the situation is right".

Waterdude, I agree and I think Bush said something to that effect right after 9/11, something like we will use whatever we have in our arsenal to settle terrorist issues. I just remember the talking heads on the news saying Bush implied the use of nukes was not out of the question if appropriate. Its just that the French were less diplomatic/flowery about the way they said it. Bush also paraphrased the Bible and said if you arent with us, you are against us. I think the French, with their long history of surrendering, kind of knew no one would take them seriously had they plagiarized Bush on that also.

Are the French finally growing a pair?

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