Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

We have one at my parents lake place, never had it go off. We have a multi-tier anti freeze system out there. The furnace is set down to 60 or so when nobody is there and the gas fireplace stats are set at 50. So we have to have 3 failures before it gets cold in there.

As a precaution the well is shut down when nobody is there, so even if it does freeze the damage is limited to a burst pipe and a little bit of water.

 

[jkust]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

One additional idea.. If you have a neighbor that is relatively close and they have internet, you could negotiate paying part of the monthly internet expense to allow you to monitor your stuff.

Good thought but not an option. Mostly people are seasonal around there.

 

[Fishing Dude too]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

I would drain water from house, heat they systems area with old style heater to keep area warm, then repeat everytime you leave the cabin. I just winterized the lake house if we go and use it in winter buy water for drinking-cooking and use bucket water to flush the toilet. works great for us.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

I would drain water from house, heat they systems area with old style heater to keep area warm, then repeat everytime you leave the cabin. I just winterized the lake house if we go and use it in winter buy water for drinking-cooking and use bucket water to flush the toilet. works great for us.

I think that type of system depends on the size of the lake place. I think that jkusts place is nearly as big as my parents place. Think house on lake, not cabin.

 

[jkust]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

We have one at my parents lake place, never had it go off. We have a multi-tier anti freeze system out there. The furnace is set down to 60 or so when nobody is there and the gas fireplace stats are set at 50. So we have to have 3 failures before it gets cold in there.

As a precaution the well is shut down when nobody is there, so even if it does freeze the damage is limited to a burst pipe and a little bit of water.

Ok so for some reason on the circuit breaker for the well pump inside the service box there is a piece of tape that says 'keep power to well pump on in the winter". I don't understand why that would be? What am I missing?

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Ok so for some reason on the circuit breaker for the well pump inside the service box there is a piece of tape that says 'keep power to well pump on in the winter". I don't understand why that would be? What am I missing?

Might be a leak in the system or a bad check valve that makes the pump lose its prime if it is not allowed to maintain the pressure. I'm assuming that you have a sandpoint system.

 

[jkust]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

I think that type of system depends on the size of the lake place. I think that jkusts place is nearly as big as my parents place. Think house on lake, not cabin.

Well fortunately and unfortunately it is a big place with multiple parts of the house with 12 and 20 foot ceilings. It is a double edge sword situation. If I did for example just shut it down but then go up for only a weekend to go snowmobiling, it would take a long time to heat it all up only to shut it right back down. We plan to go up every weekend we can get away.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Well fortunately and unfortunately it is a big place with multiple parts of the house with 12 and 20 foot ceilings. It is a double edge sword situation. If I did for example just shut it down but then go up for only a weekend to go snowmobiling, it would take a long time to heat it all up only to shut it right back down. We plan to go up every weekend we can get away.

Yup, and that is basically the same as my folks place. If you didn't keep the heat up to a reasonable level then it would take forever to heat it up. Not to mention all the issues that would be caused by 70 degree temp swings inside. We do have one bathroom that gets shut down for the winter due to its location and the way the house is heated. Also the bunk house above the attached garage is left cold and only warmed up if someone actually needs it (rare in the winter) - that only has electric heat and no water in it.

 

[avenger79]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

His house gets cold in the winter. He has everything drained including antifreeze in the pipes. They get long periods of power outages and apparently the cold ruins the wood floors and other issues. Don't know all the details of that.

yeah these guy's places were mostly northern WI, they liked the ability to go on their phone and set the heat temp to "comfy" when they were going up there. of course they would wait until back to work to say "oh let me lower the temp up north". LOL

 

[jkust]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Might be a leak in the system or a bad check valve that makes the pump lose its prime if it is not allowed to maintain the pressure. I'm assuming that you have a sandpoint system.

Yes but the pressure tank and the pump are new. Maybe the tape is old and never got removed. Problem is this was an estate so the owner was deceased and I couldn't ask any questions. Most things were kept up well or are new or nearly new...except the furnace is from '89.

 

[bajaunderground]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Yes but the pressure tank and the pump are new. Maybe the tape is old and never got removed. Problem is this was an estate so the owner was deceased and I couldn't ask any questions. Most things were kept up well or are new or nearly new...except the furnace is from '89.

Sounds like a service call to a local well guy? If you do leave the pump on, install a bypass and a shutoff before/at the home?! You don't want the system to freeze up and keep pumping. 1) It'll fill up the house with pre-ice (H2O) and 2) It'll burn your pump out if it sucks the well dry!?

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

2) It'll burn your pump out if it sucks the well dry!?

Only if you have a really crappy pressure switch/contactor. Any decent pressure switch fails the pump out at under 5 psi and requires you to hold the contact lever to bring pressure up in the system before it'll latch in and run the pump automatically.

 

[jkust]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Sounds like a service call to a local well guy? If you do leave the pump on, install a bypass and a shutoff before/at the home?! You don't want the system to freeze up and keep pumping. 1) It'll fill up the house with pre-ice (H2O) and 2) It'll burn your pump out if it sucks the well dry!?

Well at least I have the water into the house shut off. Further then, the pump that i'm talking about is a foot away from the pressure tank in the garage. I don't understand how that pumps water from the ground. Doesn't the pump have to be down in the ground? This whole well thing is new to me.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Yes but the pressure tank and the pump are new. Maybe the tape is old and never got removed. Problem is this was an estate so the owner was deceased and I couldn't ask any questions. Most things were kept up well or are new or nearly new...except the furnace is from '89.

I guess an easy check would be - next time you are up there then shut it off and don't use any water for a few hours. Check back and look at the pressure guage to see if it is falling. If you don't have a guage then add one.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Well at least I have the water into the house shut off. Further then, the pump that i'm talking about is a foot away from the pressure tank in the garage. I don't understand how that pumps water from the ground. Doesn't the pump have to be down in the ground? This whole well thing is new to me.

It is a jet pump. There is a check valve probably right above where the line comes out of the floor and into the pump. The pump has to have a prime, so when you replace it or open the system then you need to open up the priming port on top the pump - usually a cap on a T fitting that goes into the pump - then you pour water into the pump to fill the pump and the top of the check valve. At that point it is primed and then you replace the cap and turn the pump on.


Shallow-well pumps

These days, the most common pump for a shallow well is a jet pump. Jet pumps are mounted above the well, either in the home or in a well house, and draw the water up from the well through suction (see Single-Drop Jet-Pump System diagram on next page). Because suction is involved, atmospheric pressure is what's really doing the work. Think of the system as a long straw. As you suck on the straw, you create a vacuum in the straw above the water. Once the vacuum is there, the weight of the air, or atmospheric pressure, pushes the water up the straw. Consequently, the height that you can lift the water with a shallow-well jet pump relates to the weight of the air. While air pressure varies with elevation, it's common to limit the depth of a jet-pump-operated shallow well to about 25 ft.

Jet pumps create suction in a rather novel way. The pump is powered by an electric motor that drives an impeller, or centrifugal pump. The impeller moves water, called drive water, from the well through a narrow orifice, or jet, mounted in the housing in front of the impeller. This constriction at the jet causes the speed of the moving water to increase, much like the nozzle on a garden hose. As the water leaves the jet, a partial vacuum is created that sucks additional water from the well. Directly behind the jet is a Venturi tube that increases in diameter. Its function is to slow down the water and increase the pressure. The pumped water–new water that's drawn from the well by the suction at the jet–then combines with the drive water to discharge into the plumbing system at high pressure.

Because shallow-well jet pumps use water to draw water, they generally need to be primed–filled with water–before they'll work. To keep water in the pump and plumbing system from flowing back down into the well, a 1-way check valve is installed in the feed line to the pump.

 

[jkust]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

It is a jet pump. There is a check valve probably right above where the line comes out of the floor and into the pump. The pump has to have a prime, so when you replace it or open the system then you need to open up the priming port on top the pump - usually a cap on a T fitting that goes into the pump - then you pour water into the pump to fill the pump and the top of the check valve. At that point it is primed and then you replace the cap and turn the pump on.

View attachment 217277

That's good info. Thanks

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Been doing this 30+ years and have two pieces of advice:
1) get a land line installed. Your big risk is electrical outage which takes out all the heating that you've described. A land line is more reliable in this situation.
2) find out why the pump breaker is supposed to stay on no matter what...and deal with it.
That is a time bomb waiting to go off. I'd never dream of leaving my place with the pump turned on.

You also need to sort out the electric heaters as they are your back-up. If necessary, get an electrician in to either calibrate the built in t'stats or install more user-friendly wall mounts.
Same with your plumbing. Get a plumber in to make sure that the system can be 100% drained, and make any necessary adjustments if it can't.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

It is a jet pump. There is a check valve probably right above where the line comes out of the floor and into the pump. The pump has to have a prime, so when you replace it or open the system then you need to open up the priming port on top the pump - usually a cap on a T fitting that goes into the pump - then you pour water into the pump to fill the pump and the top of the check valve. At that point it is primed and then you replace the cap and turn the pump on.

View attachment 217277
Shallow-well pumps

These days, the most common pump for a shallow well is a jet pump. Jet pumps are mounted above the well, either in the home or in a well house, and draw the water up from the well through suction (see Single-Drop Jet-Pump System diagram on next page). Because suction is involved, atmospheric pressure is what's really doing the work. Think of the system as a long straw. As you suck on the straw, you create a vacuum in the straw above the water. Once the vacuum is there, the weight of the air, or atmospheric pressure, pushes the water up the straw. Consequently, the height that you can lift the water with a shallow-well jet pump relates to the weight of the air. While air pressure varies with elevation, it's common to limit the depth of a jet-pump-operated shallow well to about 25 ft.

Jet pumps create suction in a rather novel way. The pump is powered by an electric motor that drives an impeller, or centrifugal pump. The impeller moves water, called drive water, from the well through a narrow orifice, or jet, mounted in the housing in front of the impeller. This constriction at the jet causes the speed of the moving water to increase, much like the nozzle on a garden hose. As the water leaves the jet, a partial vacuum is created that sucks additional water from the well. Directly behind the jet is a Venturi tube that increases in diameter. Its function is to slow down the water and increase the pressure. The pumped water?new water that's drawn from the well by the suction at the jet?then combines with the drive water to discharge into the plumbing system at high pressure.

Because shallow-well jet pumps use water to draw water, they generally need to be primed?filled with water?before they'll work. To keep water in the pump and plumbing system from flowing back down into the well, a 1-way check valve is installed in the feed line to the pump.

Check valves are reasonable in a nearly horizontal suction line...say from a lake....but not in this application.
There will be a foot valve at the bottom of the suction line.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Check valves are reasonable in a nearly horizontal suction line...say from a lake....but not in this application.
There will be a foot valve at the bottom of the suction line.

Maybe that too, but in every shallow well I've ever seen, including the one in our lake place there is a check valve.

This is where ours is:

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Anybody ever use a freeze alarm for a vacation home?

Only if you have a really crappy pressure switch/contactor. Any decent pressure switch fails the pump out at under 5 psi and requires you to hold the contact lever to bring pressure up in the system before it'll latch in and run the pump automatically.

But not with a jet pump.
There are a lot of things that will cause a jet pump to cycle and run on....and burn out if unattended.
It is wise practice to leave it off when you are away.