Any pilots that actually KNOW?

[Bubba1235]

How low does a 777 have to fly over water to drop off radar?

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

...I don't think we know yet....but apparently its probably not as low as it should have been.

BP

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

Oh it is possible, to track aircraft a lot of things have to be in the correct place. One of the key things in this one, is the transponder being turned off, screws everything up in regards to tracking said airplane. When you turn the transponder off, you immediately loose track of where it was and then it becomes luck if it fly's through a radar pattern. Then throw in the fact, there may have been a unfriendly country, or individuals in a country that were helping make this plane "Disappear"

Planes don't just disappear without help.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

How low does a 777 have to fly over water to drop off radar?

It's a geometry problem. Depends on how high the radar is from the surface of the earth.

 

[rbh]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

No mountains to hide behind in the middle of the ocean, just the curvature of the earth.
So if you actually have overlapping radar, you would not loose the aircraft in the outer ring but right on the front door, also if the transponder is turned off the plane does not become invisible it just does not transmit out its designation.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

One of the key things in this one, is the transponder being turned off, screws everything up in regards to tracking said airplane.

The radar tracks the airplane, the transponder returns a code when pinged by the ground station radar identifying itself. If the radar can't see the airplane, the airplane won't be able to respond to a ping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world/asia/malaysia-plane-transponder.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0

At least when I was flying private planes, the transponders only responded with the squawk code and altitude. I am not positive what airliners have. I need to talk to my friend who is a retired ATC guy.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

Yes, we have AWAC's in the air at all times, but did we have one in the area that this plane was flying? As far as spy satellites, were they looking in the right area when things went wrong? Were they configured to look for something this small, were there indications that we needed to be watching. As I said, a lot of things need to be in the correct place and working on that situation to make sure you can track a plane all the time.

Heck I lost a C-147 that was attached to my command for a while one time, the transponder went out in it and we had no reason to be paying all of our attention to it at the time. Took us several hours to find it.

There are a couple of things in this, that are really looking odd, the transponder being off and the speculation that it took a hard left off its flight path, to me, that seems to point to it being taken by some group. I am not privy to much information any longer, but I have talked to a few of my retired friends that were in intelligence and they are thinking they should start looking at airfields both official and covert that could handle a plane of this size, it could be sitting on the ground somewhere. My friend think they need to be looking at how much fuel was put in the plane when it left, the cruising range of the 777 is 5240 Nautical miles, with a full load. It is time to start looking at the variables on where it could be, instead of just the ocean.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

I was under the impression, correct me if I'm wrong, but the US Navy keeps AWACs in the air all the time. America's Navy - 100 Percent - YouTube

Just sayin that it seems all but impossible to lose a plane this large without someone deliberately keeping quiet. Heck you'd think that with all the US spy satellites around the world tracking this plane wouldn't be a big deal.

I know I'm probably not being realistic on what our Navy and satellite program can do but it just doesn't seem fathomable a jumbo jet at 35,000 feet drops below radar (or changes course) without someone having noticed. 20 years ago I might have bought it but not today.

....you'd think....but it was about 10 years ago that a big 727 went missing off the coast of Africa....no trace has ever been found of that plane or what happened to it...no explanation, just gone....or?

BP

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

The radar tracks the airplane, the transponder returns a code when pinged by the ground station radar identifying itself. If the radar can't see the airplane, the airplane won't be able to respond to a ping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world/asia/malaysia-plane-transponder.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0

At least when I was flying private planes, the transponders only responded with the squawk code and altitude. I am not positive what airliners have. I need to talk to my friend who is a retired ATC guy.

The systems on the new airplanes are so much more sophisticated than they were, the engine manufacture tracks the plane, the plane manufacture tracks the plane, there is a whole bunch of tracking going on when a plane is in the sky.

Like I said, it take a whole lot of help to make a passenger jet disappear, like this one has.

That said, my experience is limited to the Military, and we lost planes every once in a while.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

YI am no privy to much information any longer, but I have talked to a few of my retired friends that were in intelligence and they are thinking they should start looking at airfields both official and covert that could handle a plane of this size, it could be sitting on the ground somewhere.

This plane being lost is world news. Besides the fact that this plane could easily be seen from the air or by people on the ground, that scenario seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

This plane being lost is world news. Besides the fact that this plane could easily be seen from the air or by people on the ground, that scenario seems highly unlikely to me.

Could very well be unlikely Bruce, but so was 9/11 until it happened.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

Like Bruce said, geometry comes into play. I don't know about that part of the world, but I would think that killing the bird's transponder and dropping her way down on the deck she could (theoretically) sneak around radar long enough to make land. There's portions of Africa where ATC is pretty sketchy even with the modern avionics.

I don't think anyone knows enough to say with any confidence, and it certainly could have augured in somewhere. But it's also (remotely) possible that it set down somewhere nice and quiet. I have no idea exactly why that could/would/did happen - but it's sure kinda' interesting.

 

[agallant80]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

I think the issue here is admitting that our technology does not provide the answers and control over the world around us that we think it does.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

I think the issue here is admitting that our technology does not provide the answers and control over the world around us that we think it does.

Exactly!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

Spoke to my ATC friend. He says those transponders have a ton of information including location. Ever since they put TCAS on planes, they need all that info plus the transponders talk to other plane's transponders. He has flown on the flight deck of a 777. He says its an amazing plane.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

...He has flown on the flight deck of a 777. He says its an amazing plane.

I got a chance to fly the full motion SIM. It is a cool airplane. The avionics are really kinda' overwhelming. Auto-throttle is beyond cool, tho.

 

[Outsider]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

There are many parts of the globe that are NOT covered by radar. No radar, transponder is good for TCAS only ...

 

[bassman284]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

I was on another messge board where I got this link to a professional pilots message board called Professional Pilots Rumor Network. Here's a link to a thread there about this incident. It's up to 154 pages at this point and I've read about 30 of them here and there and for the most part know no more then I did before. Still some interesting stuff occasionally

Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost - Page 154 - PPRuNe Forums

Click if you have a lot of time on your hands. These folks are talkative.

 

[MTboatguy]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

Well the latest story to beak on this plane being missing, is.....drum roll.....

That it landed somewhere!

Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? - CNN.com

 

[southkogs]

Re: Any pilots that actually KNOW?

^^^ Daily, that is becoming a more likely theory.

Though we were talking about it last night at a squadron meeting: there is precedent for both a pilot committing suicide and taking his crew/cargo with him, and an intentional wrecking of an aircraft that completely incinerates the thing. We're still missing the big, rather noticeable, smoking hole in the ground ... but it's possible to have something similar happen over the ocean.

Very interesting to watch.