mrbscott, please, absolutely no offense taken. I re-read your link and my post. I made specific reference to detainees and Gitmo. Your link doesn't mention either one. I did a web search on deaths in Gitmo. I found a few sources that repeat my claim, none that say there were murders. <br />However for the sake of my debating points and its effectiveness, Im completely willing to retract that statement.<br /><br />
All right PW, hey, I think its so cool you've discovered a sure-fire way to protect your argument or debate.<br />Deny any and all possible facts (or even likely ones)and say you don't understand the one presenting them.<br />I still appreciate your response.<br /><br />
Ordinarily I agree with you. But since monumental mistakes have been committed and it would be totally disastrous to drop-tail and run, some "solution based" comments are needed. Unfortunately there is a total absence of leadership in the legislative branch to offset the incompetent ones in the executive branch.<br /> All the comments made by the left are totally without solution, leadership or common sense. That in itself is bad enough, but it goes on to be extreme, inflammatory, seditious, treasonous, mean, ridiculous, unbelievable, sick, and very ,very, *COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE*.<br />All while having our troops in harms way. <br />The cost of this type of what you call "duty to speak up and question", may prove to be too high.
If you were specifically speaking of Gitmo, although there is no specific mention in your post, then you are correct. No murders that we know of. My apologies. <br /><br />At least the government has finally come at least partially clean about the torture in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Cuba. Also, for anyone who doesn't know, they are releasing the rest of the photos confiscated from Abu Ghraib sometime next week. You might not want to watch tv for a while seeing as these photos are supposed to be much worse than what we've already seen.
Transparency? For what? This is war. They are the enemy. Most American's could care less if the military stood them up against a wall and shot them just like we did with all the enemy combatants we found out of uniform in WWII.<br /><br />
I'll take the military's word for it. I give them the benefit of the doubt. I trust them to do the right thing. You clearly do not. You seem to think they are being held for some sort of sadistic fun. Like they want the burden of holding these murderous scum because GW gets some perverse pleasure out of it. Like our soldiers want to give their Koran's the white glove treatment while at home their own ability to worship is under attack daily from the left. <br /><br />Funny thing is, if some of these guys were released and were found to be behind another 911 people like you would be calling for Bush's head and condemning the military for gross incompetence. Can't win with you people...
What a laugh. Liberals/socialists have been chipping away at the constitution, either from mass hysteria, or by using activist judges to destroy the constitution since the 1930's. Social Security, a socialist idea that is patently unconstitutional, was made law by FDR, a liberal hero. How can anyone who claims the sanctity of the constitution vote democrat? The Supreme Court Justices that destroyed our right to private property, they were liberals. The right to private property ownership was one of the main tenants of the dream that became America. Liberalism is not about America, not about the Sacred Constitution, not about what our founding fathers constructed. It is about a socialist utopia that is 180 degrees out from what the Bill Of Rights promised.<br /><br />Nowadays, thanks to liberal filth, the Boy Scouts are wrong, gay marriage is right; the nuclear family is useless and women must have a right to murder the unborn; and we treat our enemies at Gitmo better than we treat our service men and women. Thanks liberals, thanks for all your hard work to send the America that thousands fought and died for, slowly circling the drain. Thanks for the liberal/socialist policies that have oppressed minorities, rewarding them for for making poor life decisions. Thanks for weakening our national defenses. Thanks for eroding the Christian moral code that was embraced by those who wrote the constitution. Finally, thanks Durbin and Howard Dean, for speaking out loud and clear, telling the world what a bunch of kooks you are.
If we don't learn from history, Bush is bound to repeat it. The comparisons of the current administration to Hitler, etc is not a very far fetched one. Simply read and compare. OH, wait, that's right, the Republican party doesn't want you to think for yourself, let alone become educated. Because then you would usurp their power by questioning them and requiring a justification. Any thought that we can win the "War on Terror" is foolish. We will never eliminate terrorists. All we can do is hope to control them. Limit their abilities and protect ourselves from them. We can't eradicate the earth of evil. We may very well wipe out one faction, but another will step in to take it's place. Look at the Nazis. Even after the world defeated Hitler and the Nazi party fell. The world cried out that the Nazi ideology was WRONG. But we still today have "Neo-Nazis". Different name, essentially the same ideology.<br /> <br /><br />
Ya think????<br /><br />
A war perpetrated under false pretenses. Where's the difference between our actions and those of the Islamic Extremists?<br />
We get DEFENSE of our country perfectly well. What "Our side" doesn't get is the way "your side" blindly follows the idiot in the big white house on Pennsylvania Avenue. "I lied. I mislead you to get my own way. But because I made you think it is in your best interest I'm getting away with it." All of America's sheople unite. And follow Bush into destruction, world disdain(not that we didn't already have it, but now the world has more reason), and the financial ruin of the country.<br /><br />
Otherwise Bush couldn't get it.<br />
A war perpetrated on false pretenses, remember? Kind of seems like saying that because the kidnapper provided the victim with a luxurious captivity lessens the kidnappers culpability to to original crime. What's wrong with that reasoning? Oh, right, if you AREN'T a Republican there's no justification, no mitigation - FRY HIM!!!. But if you are, since you were a humanitarian after the fact, the fact never existed in the first place.<br /> <br />
Why not just protect our homeland, and not try to "liberate" another? Remember, during the Revolutionary war we would not have been victorious without the help of another country. But we'd be speaking French if they had "liberated" us.<br /><br />I support our troops no matter where they are. I just don't support the Idiot(commander)-In-Chief. He won't accept responsibility for those in his command (ie Abu Graib, among others), and he won't be honest with this country. At least Reagan tookl responsibility for the military since he was the Commander-In-Chief.<br /><br />And Yes, you can support the Military and oppose the brainless wonder supposedly controlling it. The troops are where they were sent, without choice, to do a job they where told to do, without choice, all in defense of this country. They are honorable, regardless of what actions they are ordered to commit. It is their superiors who are dishonorable, if those orders are morally or inherently wrong. That is the real concept. And I ask.....<br />
But not questioning the true motives of the system seems to give it's supporters cover. To avoid the indisputable facts that don't support the system's wishes.<br /><br />
What dictator drove the terrorists of 9/11? Facts are bearin gout it wasn't Saddam. Was Saddam simply collateral damage of our "War on Terror"? The evil one at the helm of the organization behind 9/11 is still at large. But we got Saddam. So I guess that justifies our actions.<br /><br />
So if my little brother got bullied on the school playground, and I beat up the bully, how would the principal have reacted? I would not have been applauded. And keep in mind, the bullies would not have stopped.
First, what indisputable facts, I just see opinions. Please show me a photo of the ovens behind gitmo, the mass graves along the beach (like the ones in Iraq), the children, women, homosexuals. That is what durbin charged, just like the nazi's. Please help me with these FACTS.<br /><br />Second, This justifies mental weaklings like durbin the right to put the troops on the ground and the civilian population in danger? As that is the topic of the thread. What is the head count that would be acceptable for the left to accept before decrying this BS. I can't support putting our troops in danger so some political hack can take backdoor cheap shots at President Bush. This is very emotional but short on facts and long on opinions. <br /><br />Third, I have to assume you are member of the Bush inner circle to so completely understand his motives as stated.<br /><br /><br />
I don't know where you went to school but where I went to school your little brother would be in a lot better position to keep all his teeth. I never had an opportunity to ask the principal if I would be OK if the bully could rearrange my face. We are sovereign, we don't have to ask permission, Mr. Kerry. Let's try another analogy, If your neighbor kills his wife, the police should just leave him alone if he promises never to get married again? Something a little sideways with that don't you think. Maybe if they are a member of move-on.org a little therapy would be enough.<br /><br />Lets add to it, if my brother who got beat up by punk A, but was held down by punk B, both punk A and B get the beat down. Being an enabler makes one just as culpable as the direct offender, just a little more cowardly. These weasels are frequently the real cancer behind the violence.<br /><br /><br />
Nice statement, what does this have to do with durbins unsubstantiated, tasteless, historically incorrect (Liberal schools, but liberals base are not highly educated, and benefit from rewriting history and low education), offensive, and dangerous statement. Is there ever a time you can't put our servicemen and women in harms way to exercise your freedom of speech? Regardless how it benefits the enemy during wartime? First Amemdment baby. The responsiblities of office aren't really spelled out in the law. But really, how many would have to die before a statement like this would bother you? That is the stated topic of this thread. Based on your statement the Military is complicit with administration. All those soldiers who left their families and jobs and homes did this with the knowledge of the Bush conspiracy? Or is it a vast right wing conspiracy? Durbin attacked the troops directly, aleigning them with nazi's. Can you point to the specific nazi working at gitmo? Which nazi abused these poor terrorists? Which comrade is starving detainees into skeletons? Can you show me any missing limbs on anyone since arriving? And now based on this fool's analogy our troops are viewed how by the world? Do you care? You say you support the troops. It is impossible to separate the troops from the leaders, they are the troops. Durbin attacked the troops. Perhaps a list of the troops you support would be better and more accurate. By underminding their leader with false accusations and lies you therefor absolutely undermine the troops. Talk is cheap, you either support the troops or you don't. Might it be troops under the rank of private? Maybe troops under 6' 2". All troops not from texas? Get the point? It is not possible for you to separate the leadership from the grunts. You undermine one you undermine them all. It may make you uncomfortable, but you therefor can not support the troops based on your above statements. You may not hold them personally responsible like you do President Bush, but to defend the words of durbin means you cannot support the troops. If you support the troops, you will join in calling for durbins removal and scorn his words.<br /><br />George Bush hasn't proven himself a liar like other presidents, and therefor I believe he went to war for nobel reasons. If those facts prove later to be untrue, the decision was made in good faith and its tough - no impossible to take it back. I do remember that all of congress, less Feingold, gave the president authority to declare war. That includes, durbin, clinton, boxer, etc. Share the responsiblity even if it makes your side uncomfortable.<br /><br />How exactly does demeaning our commander in chief support our troops? <br /><br />Does it get them additional help from the coalition? nope. <br /><br />Does it embolden our enemy? Yep. <br />Does it help the troops to have an embolden enemy? Nope<br /><br />The military lives and dies based on the chain of command. How does weakening the chain support the troops? It doesn't. The weaker the chain, the more troops will die. It is a cause and effect. <br /><br />How do you get Bush out? Vote him out. That is the only option other than his death or impeachment followed by removal. <br /><br />Think durbins lies and misrepresentation will help get President Bush impeached? I know it didn't help the troops.<br /><br />Therefor if you want to support the troops, support the troops, all of them. And vote for someone who will redirect them in a way consistant with your point of view. The American people have spoken.
