Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

cutbait76

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I'm getting down to the nitty gritty of my Starcraft rebuild.

Started wiring up the nav lights and such and a bright and potentially no catching fish idea popped in my head.

All my other boats have been glass, and I never worried about it before now.

What are the thoughts, opinions you have on an aluminum boat, painted or not creating an electrical field while trolling sending fish running?

I know the problem exists, I'm not however pretending to be any sort of expert on the matter and would like some intelligent/educated input on the issue and how best to avoid it.

Thanks

Mike
 

Bondo

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Ayuh,... Not sure what yer gettin' at, but,...

If you use the hull for the ground path of the electrical accessories,...

Yer hull will disappear around you, especially below the waterline...
 

matt167

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Your electrical system needs to be isolated from the hull, otherwise your going to create electrolysis which will eat the hull, and if you run in salt water, it'll happen even quicker. As long as the electrical system is isolated from the hull, it will not transmit a power current to the water
 

ondarvr

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

You can put a charge in the water, some people check it and try to keep it with a certain range, you can buy a small control box designed to fine tune the amount of current around the boat. People that use downriggers are typically the most concerned, steel cables can carry the charge, so some switch to braid, others adjust the voltage to the desired range in an attempt to attract fish.
 
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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

intresting i have heard of fish being attracted to a electrical field and the navy do use a low field on there ships to reduce corrosion but ive never thought of the electrical fields chasing off fish. worth staying around to see what people think on this one
 

cutbait76

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I absolutely know not to use my aluminum boat as the ground on my electric components.

I mean, an aluminum or fiberglass boat will naturally create an electric field as it moves across water, if not just sitting in water.

Even an empty hull with no battery or electronics merely drifting will create a field/charge..

I am asking, and am familiar with the "black box" for downrigger fisherman, but how about some personal experiences?

What are the tolerences for a charge that doesn't affect fishability, how does one measure that? Is the black box the only means of controlling the fields output?
 

Bondo

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I absolutely know not to use my aluminum boat as the ground on my electric components.

I mean, an aluminum or fiberglass boat will naturally create an electric field as it moves across water, if not just sitting in water.

Even an empty hull with no battery or electronics merely drifting will create a field/charge..

I am asking, and am familiar with the "black box" for downrigger fisherman, but how about some personal experiences?

What are the tolerences for a charge that doesn't affect fishability, how does one measure that? Is the black box the only means of controlling the fields output?

Ayuh,.... Ok, let's try this in the Fishin' forum, insteada the restoration forum...
 

cutbait76

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Ayuh,.... Ok, let's try this in the Fishin' forum, insteada the restoration forum...

I totally disagree.. since it has to do with hull building and preparing.

What I bring up has to do with the boat, and NOT the fishing
 

Bondo

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

I totally disagree.. since it has to do with hull building and preparing.

What I bring up has to do with the boat, and NOT the fishing

Ok, it's back....


It's still either a fishin' question, or an electrical questions, as it sure as 'ell ain't a Restoration question....





Ayuh,....
 

cutbait76

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Ok, it's back....


It's still either a fishin' question, or an electrical questions, as it sure as 'ell ain't a Restoration question....





Ayuh,....

Fair enough, but as I stated in my thread starting post that I was nitty gritty in my starcraft rebuild

For what its worth I disagree again.

Man I just wanna get this rebuild done right. I don't need drama
 

ondarvr

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Get a digital multi meter and check it when it's in the water. Having a charge in the boat itself won't really affect the fish unless you are fishing very close to the boat, or if you use downriggers with SS cable and run the gear close to the ball, braid will eliminate the effect.

I have friends that use them (black box), but I don't, haven't really noticed a difference either way. I have a video camera on my DR ball and it doesn't appear to repel fish, but I have never checked to see what the charge is on my boat.

You can adjust the charge on your boat by adding zinc anodes, boats left in the water typically have them and so may your motor, trailer boats may not. With the correct amount of zinc, your boat will typically be a little on the hot side, in the .80V range. The theory is fish like it at .50 or .60 so you can dial it in with the black box.

I don’t have an opinion either way, I don’t use them and I out fish most other boats, but who knows, maybe it would help. I may pick one up though, they can be had for cheap now with so many people switching from SS cable to braid.
 

cutbait76

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Get a digital multi meter and check it when it's in the water. Having a charge in the boat itself won't really affect the fish unless you are fishing very close to the boat, or if you use downriggers with SS cable and run the gear close to the ball, braid will eliminate the effect.

I have friends that use them (black box), but I don't, haven't really noticed a difference either way. I have a video camera on my DR ball and it doesn't appear to repel fish, but I have never checked to see what the charge is on my boat.

You can adjust the charge on your boat by adding zinc anodes, boats left in the water typically have them and so may your motor, trailer boats may not. With the correct amount of zinc, your boat will typically be a little on the hot side, in the .80V range. The theory is fish like it at .50 or .60 so you can dial it in with the black box.

I don?t have an opinion either way, I don?t use them and I out fish most other boats, but who knows, maybe it would help. I may pick one up though, they can be had for cheap now with so many people switching from SS cable to braid.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

Adding anodes to the boat is the crux of this post. I apologize for taking 8 posts to get to that point.

I do have a question. When you say throw a multi meter on the boat, my immediate thought is where? One lead in the water and one on the boat? On the boat and on the negative of the battery? I can't picture in my mind to two points to measure the voltage
 

ondarvr

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

One on the negative terminal of the battery and the other on the downrigger wire. Changing the number and size of the anodes will change the voltage.
 

Larry3215

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

The frame and mounting brackets on all the outboard motors I have ever owned were grounded. How can you bolt an outboard to an aluminum transom without grounding it also? The same would apply to an IO or Stearn drive.

I dont see any way to keep your hull from being a negative in the water.

If you have a motor, the aluminum hull is going to be part of the electrical circuit. Thats why anodes are required in salt water and good idea even in "fresh" water.

I use my aluminum boat in salt and fresh water and I have anodes on the motor leg and bolted to the transom.

As an aside, I just bought a Cannon downrigger and it has a built in "Black Box" which keeps the downrigger cable positively charged. I wasnt sure I believed it but my DVM verifies a .06-.08 volt pos on the cable compared to ground.

So far I cant see that my catch rate is significantly improved though :)
 

Sea Stomper

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

I agree with ondarvr. Get some hard numbers. They don't lie. I've heard it here in the Pacific, about electrical fields and stuff. There are a huge number of North Rivers and Boultons and many other aluminum boats used here, and the issue isn't discussed much other than for corrosion reasons but when a certain boat can't catch fish, the issue always pops up. I have NEVER heard anyone be able to say WHAT exactly is the desired situation for electrical fields and which charge is the best for catching fish. I am an FCC licensed broadcast tech and electrically speaking, I can't for the life of me understand how a charge is supposed to get down a line to where the fish is with the extremely limited conductivity of a monofilament or braided line. Even if the line is stainless as on a downrigger, as soon as it touches the water, it's charge becomes whatever the water's voltage is at, which is zero. There might be a difference between the downrigger and the water, but once a line enters the water, theoretically it should be the same voltage as the water.

As an aside, I just bought a Cannon downrigger and it has a built in "Black Box" which keeps the downrigger cable positively charged. I wasnt sure I believed it but my DVM verifies a .06-.08 volt pos on the cable compared to ground.

So far I cant see that my catch rate is significantly improved though :)
I would be more interested in what the cable voltage is underwater compared to the water surrounding it. Having said all of this, I regularly fish on another boat out here in salt water that uses Canon's positive ion control on the cable and the boat totally kicks tail for early salmon limits almost every time. I still think it's that boat's captain's fishing techniques rather than his charged downrigger cables.


So as far as I'm concerned, a person should only be concerned with voltages on the boat hull and their difference to the voltage of the water as measured with an accurate volt meter for the preservation of their hull and equipment on the boat.

StompersBigFlatty.jpg
 

Larry3215

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

.....I can't for the life of me understand how a charge is supposed to get down a line to where the fish is with the extremely limited conductivity of a monofilament or braided line. Even if the line is stainless as on a downrigger, as soon as it touches the water, it's charge becomes whatever the water's voltage is at, which is zero. There might be a difference between the downrigger and the water, but once a line enters the water, theoretically it should be the same voltage as the water.

......

I would be more interested in what the cable voltage is underwater compared to the water surrounding it.

The voltage on a stainless steel cable will be essentially the same at all points on the cable. This is because the resistance of the cable is very low and the current flow is very low. Voltage drop = the resistance of the length of cable times the current flowing through the cable.

The end result is the voltage difference between the top of the cable out of the water and down at the downrigger weight will be essentially the same.
 

Sea Stomper

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

This is because the resistance of the cable is very low and the current flow is very low. Voltage drop = the resistance of the length of cable times the current flowing through the cable.

The end result is the voltage difference between the top of the cable out of the water and down at the downrigger weight will be essentially the same.

I can understand that the ohms law equation you present would be with a cable in free space. But it's in contact with the water. I don't dismiss what you say could be true. But I still can't understand why a cable wouldn't become the potential of the water under the surface of the water when x number of feet of the cable is in contact with the water :). Would it not dissipate the charge at the water's surface? Maybe because there is a resistance between the cable and the water in contact with it? Is this a bone headed assumption on my part? I might be coming around to your way of thinking but I want to know why the cable would be a different voltage than the water surrounding it. My apologies to the moderator but this is really interesting to me and may contribute to building of aluminum boats.
 

Grandad

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

All my other boats have been glass, and I never worried about it before now. What are the thoughts, opinions you have on an aluminum boat, painted or not creating an electrical field while trolling sending fish running?

I know the problem exists, I'm not however pretending to be any sort of expert on the matter and would like some intelligent/educated input on the issue and how best to avoid it.
OK, simple question can't be answered so simply. I'm not so sure that a problem exists unless you specifically design a "black box" to create it. As I understand electricity, it's a flow of electrons through a pathway from one point to another. The two points must have different charges (picture a bigger pile of electrons on one point than on the other) for there to be a potential for current to flow. With the exception of electrostatic charges, there must be a complete circular return path back to the power supply before a continuous flow of current can exist.

Electrons from your boat's battery post have no desire to flow anywhere but back to the battery's other post. In a properly wired system, electrons have no desire to leave the battery and enter the water. A properly wired system typically has an unavoidable electrical connection between the negative post and an aluminum hull via the engine, be it an outboard or an I/O. Your hull also has an unavoidable connection with the water, paint or no paint. OK, so your boat's negative terminal is connected to the water. If you drop a wire from the positive terminal into the water, electrons will flow through the water between the submerged wire and the aluminum hull in their quest to get back to the battery. They will not only take the shortest path, but every path that they can find to get back to the battery. So the water in the area of the boat will become a wide path for current flow that probably would offend marine life, even at a very low voltage. So, I'm not convinced that positively charging a downrigger as mentioned above is a legitimate way to actually prevent offending fish.

A second concern is hull corrosion. As has been generally advised, using the metal hull as a negative return path (as you would use a metal car body) for various loads such as lights should be avoided. Doing so causes current to flow through the hull's skin to the engine and back to the negative battery terminal. Current flow through the hull can rapidly damage it, particularly at any points of high resistance. It is also a functionally unreliable path. So keep your negative wires from contacting the hull and make sure that they are equivalently sized to the positive wires in the circuit.

Corrosion can also exist through electrolysis where a current flow is established between two dissimilar metals placed in an electrolyte. Two metals having different "nobilities" such as aluminum and brass will establish a current flow that eats away the less noble material (the aluminum). The water surrounding an aluminum hull provides the electrolytic current path, salt water being more effective than fresh water. These conditions exist even without a wiring system on the boat.

Lastly, when shore power is introduced into the equation, the physical rules for electrons are the same, but the pathways for potential current flow are different. 120 volts AC arrives at your boat with a potential to flow to ground (or your aluminum hull in the water). The only reason it has this potential to flow to ground is that back at the voltage source, the transformer, the supply utility has connected one of the transformer terminals to earth, typically via a ground rod as required standard practice. Should the live (ungrounded) wire somehow come in contact with your hull, a short circuit results with current flowing the hull, then through the water, back to the shore and then back though the soil to reach the ground rod and the grounded terminal of the transformer. Again, electrons are not trying to get to the earth; they're using every pathway back to the power source, including the earth. This current flow can exist in the water between two or more vessels and the shore, because of one improperly wired vessel. Damage to aluminum hulls and engines and any submerged fittings can rapidly occur. There are ways to isolate electrical systems and prevent this damage, but this is getting too far off topic. - Grandad
 

Sea Stomper

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

Cool. Well, back to the original question, there's a bunch of information you can google up on the web about electrolysis, protection against it and so forth. Personally, even with my glass boat with an old 75 Chrysler out in the Pacific salt water, I can drift for halibut for hours at a time. I always switch my main batteries off with an independent isolated electrical buss powering my electronics which include 2 sonars, 2 vhf's and 2 gps units. As soon as I retrieve my boat from the water and flush the engines, the first thing is to disconnect all 3 batteries just to remove any stray currents flowing around the engine dissimilar metals. I can't really do much against the normal dissimilar metals electrolytic action that happens by itself except to wash all the salt water off everything. I've had little trouble with salt water on either the Chrysler or Johnson kicker doing this. About 600 hours on the Chrysler over 5 ocean seasons with it. My suggestion to the original poster would be to continue your curiosity about this and get familiar with using a digital volt and ohm meter which you can buy inexpensively at a few different places. And also reasearch all you can on the subject. And then tell us all about it when you become the expert!

The mercathode type of active anti electrolysis systems are interesting, and Grandad's got a bunch of good info there. I am familiar with more than one boat eaten up severely by a stray current shore power issue in a boat tied up at the slip next to or within a few boats of him. It's really nasty stuff when a loop like that gets going. In one case as I recall there was more than 1.5 volts present in the loop between the two boats. We had a large fish and game patrol vessel here in Humboldt Bay with twin Cummins QSK19's which are 19 litre engines at 750 horsepower each in an aluminum hull. It looks like a PT boat. It got eaten alive with exactly the scenario that grandad explained with shore power current loops.
 

Larry3215

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Re: Aluminum boat electrical field discussion

I can understand that the ohms law equation you present would be with a cable in free space. But it's in contact with the water. I don't dismiss what you say could be true. But I still can't understand why a cable wouldn't become the potential of the water under the surface of the water when x number of feet of the cable is in contact with the water :). Would it not dissipate the charge at the water's surface? Maybe because there is a resistance between the cable and the water in contact with it? Is this a bone headed assumption on my part? I might be coming around to your way of thinking but I want to know why the cable would be a different voltage than the water surrounding it. My apologies to the moderator but this is really interesting to me and may contribute to building of aluminum boats.

Off topic I know, but a quick answer is that the salt water has a much much higher resistance (several orders of magnitude higher) than the SS wire. Yes, there is a parallel circuit situation there but the salt waters resistance is so hi relative to the cable that it has no appreciable effect on the voltage down at the ball.
 
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