Advice on a 4 winns restoration

[Pmt133]

Good evening all. I've been on this forum in the past (lost the email and account access from a breach years ago so I am using this new one) and have long been contemplating this. To put it in perspective, I was a young young boy and frisco boaters posts on his two project boats at the time were still new. I actually watched the Sea Ray start through to completion. So at least its been over ten years now.

The boat is a 1984 horizon 195 cuddy. I have the skill to do it... and I am sure with the forums help the ability to overcome anything that pops up along the way too. Should also note dad did this in a past life and will help too but his schedule isn't flexible like mine is. Heck he did most of the rigging and built the drive for it when he came into ownership.

But this is what needs to be done... The floor is starting to rot, I assume for now the stringers are gone too. I am unsure though as the boat feels solid but feel is subjective. It will need a repower. If I go through with this, a 3.0l will not be going back in. It was underpowered from new, it is still under powered. I have the parts and ability to do the swap but again, it needed the work done so why waste that effort. The boat itself is very clean for a basically 40 year old boat. I have not been as caring the last year or two as it has gotten to the point where I don't know if I should keep it.

Which leads me to my dilemma... I love the boat, how it rides and looks. Would I be happy with a bow rider? Yes and really, that is what I need. The issue is I'd be looking at a comparable bowrider in size to be around 22 feet. More over there aren't any newer ones that I like the look of so again, I would still be doing all this work more than likely.

The good: all the interior cockpit pieces have been redone in starboard and reupholstered. If I do the floor and carpet and put all those back in, the interior would look brand new. The cabin is still original and needs work.

What I am asking is this... The exterior of the boat is pretty nice. It needs the floor work and repower. I'd be very happy with it if it were back to good condition inside and could plane off with 3 people and cruise at 28 mph without basically running the thing wide open to do it. (cruise speed is 3300 rpms at 23 mph with people, 27 mph at those rpms with just me and about 35 mph wide open at 4400 rpm.) I have tried different props and haven't found one that planes off better while still having a reasonable cruising speed/rpms at cruise. Anyway, am I crazy to consider this or should I do it. I am figuring a nice boat the size I want with the power I want would be 13-20k. And still need work more than likely. I would end up settling for a late 2000s bow rider or, put that same amount into this and be totally satisfied with it.

From others who have done it, would you commit with this boat in my position?

 

[Chris1956]

A 4.3LX engine would be a good choice. I would expect about 40MPH at full throttle, and reasonable planning time with 4 people. A 5.0L motor would not be overkill, and may not extend the current doghouse, although it will likely need to be wider.

Remanufactured engines should be plentiful, but you will need manifolds, starters, alternators and the like since you are changing motors. You could rebuild the boat as an outboard with 150HP or so. A solid transom and jackplate are the way to go, however, you need to watch for engine tilt clearances, and you will not have a splashwell.

You need to check the current transom, as it is suspect, and adds a new complexity to the restoration.

If you want to do the restoration, I would recommend you purchase poly resin and cloth off amazon as it will be 1/3 price of marine places. I would use 1.5oz mat and 10oz cloth.

Figure a gal of laminating (unwaxed) resin for deck, 3 gal for transom, and maybe 2 more for stringers, plus stainless steel screws and 1 gal poly putty. A qt of waxed gelcoat is a good idea for finish coat, over all the unwaxed resin.

I would recommend dry, solid pressure treated lumber for stringers and 1/2" dry pressure treated plywood for deck. Dry it yourself in the garage rafters, for a couple of weeks.

The stringers must be scribed to match the hull, and should be fastened to the hull with poly putty and strips of glass cloth. The decking should be screwed to the stringers. The flotation foam will almost certainly need to be replaced. 2 Part Pour in foam is the way to go. Trim it to the level of the stringers. The deck needs at least 1 layer of 1.5 oz mat and resin to seal it. Waxed gel coat is good to seal the laminating resin and fill the weave of the cloth.

2 layers of 3/4" plywood for transom is standard. It can be P/T or not.

The big question is if you need to replace the transom, can you do it from the inside? It makes it real easy to keep the original gelcoat and strength of the hull, but can be a real PIA to do the work. Pulling the cap can be a challenge.

 

[Pmt133]

A 4.3LX engine would be a good choice. I would expect about 40MPH at full throttle, and reasonable planning time with 4 people. A 5.0L motor would not be overkill, and may not extend the current doghouse, although it will likely need to be wider.

Remanufactured engines should be plentiful, but you will need manifolds, starters, alternators and the like since you are changing motors. You could rebuild the boat as an outboard with 150HP or so. A solid transom and jackplate are the way to go, however, you need to watch for engine tilt clearances, and you will not have a splashwell.

You need to check the current transom, as it is suspect, and adds a new complexity to the restoration.

If you want to do the restoration, I would recommend you purchase poly resin and cloth off amazon as it will be 1/3 price of marine places. I would use 1.5oz mat and 10oz cloth.

Figure a gal of laminating (unwaxed) resin for deck, 3 gal for transom, and maybe 2 more for stringers, plus stainless steel screws and 1 gal poly putty. A qt of waxed gelcoat is a good idea for finish coat, over all the unwaxed resin.

I would recommend dry, solid pressure treated lumber for stringers and 1/2" dry pressure treated plywood for deck. Dry it yourself in the garage rafters, for a couple of weeks.

The stringers must be scribed to match the hull, and should be fastened to the hull with poly putty and strips of glass cloth. The decking should be screwed to the stringers. The flotation foam will almost certainly need to be replaced. 2 Part Pour in foam is the way to go. Trim it to the level of the stringers. The deck needs at least 1 layer of 1.5 oz mat and resin to seal it. Waxed gel coat is good to seal the laminating resin and fill the weave of the cloth.

2 layers of 3/4" plywood for transom is standard. It can be P/T or not.

The big question is if you need to replace the transom, can you do it from the inside? It makes it real easy to keep the original gelcoat and strength of the hull, but can be a real PIA to do the work. Pulling the cap can be a challenge.

I suspect the transom is solid. I replaced some electronics a couple years ago and the drilled holes were coming out with dry wood. More so I went from a rubber plug to a garboard drain 3 years ago and probed around the wood behind the old brass sleeve and that was all solid too. So for now I suspect that the transom is fine.

As for power, a 4.3 would be more than adequate I believe. I have the room in the doghouse for either a V6 or V8 at the moment, I measured it out. I had a 470 (yes I know) and drive kicking around for a proof of concept. I have read of one other person with this boat with 470 power getting about 46 GPS wide open. I suspect the V6 would perform similar. And I am budgeting for cooling system components on whatever drops in unless they provide proof of the service being done recently. (I am looking at lightly used powerplants as well as reman ones.) One lead I have has had all the components service with receipts and proof from a local marina. Short of freezing if I go with that power plant, I wouldn't worry about replacing manifolds/risers right away. With documented service and 200 hours of use, that used plant is a no brainer at the price.

As far as an outboard, I'd hate to ruin the lines of the boat with one and I just am not an outboard guy on that style of boat. I'd also have to go with a pretty long shaft or sink the outboard pretty low to get it far enough under the V of the hull. Then I would have to modify the swim platform as well. Creates different amount of work that I wouldn't be up for.

As far as all the lumber and such, pretty much what I was expecting. I have commercial accounts with lumber yards through work so I can order it all box truck it to the house and dry it out for a while.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[briangcc]

Lots of rebuilds are done with ACX exterior grade plywood. Stringers, transom, floors, etc. That's generally dry as a bone where I get mine.

 

[Chris1956]

I like pressure treated plywood for the deck and PT solid lumber for the stringers. As for the deck, there are multiple penetrations thru the deck for mounting seats, tables and other stuff. These often leak, despite the use of sealants. The PT plywood simply holds up better to rot.

As for the stringers, after the deck leaks, the water settles in the bottom of the hull, and has no escape. Plywood stringers can rot real fast. Solid lumber stringers are more rot resistant, but PT solid lumber resists rot the best. Most boat OEMs use pine for stringers anyway, so PT lumber is just as strong, Glassing the stringers is a real good idea, BTW.

As for the transom, it should have only 2 holes for the Outboard motor, below the waterline. An I/O will have the keyhole cutout, but the ODs seal pretty well. Water infiltration is therefore less of an issue. So BCX or similar plywood is just fine.

 

[ZippyDoodah2]

The best boat I ever built, and I got to drive it. It was the Celebrity/SeaDoo 200 bowriddr it was a first addition after Juniper sold to Bombardier. 20ft. V6 in it. Wei lined all 14 boats up took off on a very flat and still Rend Lake Illinois. Helicopter above us Shooting pics. Best day ever... Well unless ya count the time I met Mickey Mantle and Mario Andretti.
In your Stringers, make sure you completely glass them in. Exposed wood....water will find it. Eventually

 

[briangcc]

PT, the last time I bought it, was soaking wet. No way resin is sticking to it let alone drying out in a week's time.

Literally the PT solution was dripping out of it.

 

[Pmt133]

The stringers are allegedly encased in glass already. I may cut some access and start inspecting then go from there.

 

[Scott Danforth]

The stringers are allegedly encased in glass already. I may cut some access and start inspecting then go from there.

just like every restoration

40 years ago, fourwinns was an OMC company that was pumping out 18 boats a week. quality was not high on the list. getting them out the door fast was.

 

[Pmt133]

just like every restoration

40 years ago, fourwinns was an OMC company that was pumping out 18 boats a week. quality was not high on the list. getting them out the door fast was.

It's a pre OMC buyout boat. Wouldn't touch an OMC with a pole. Hell I feel dirty typing it.

I get what you mean though. That being said it isn't a 84 bayliner. I expect the stringers are fully glassed but again... being 40 years old nothing lasts forever. All things considered the fit/finish is quite good if they really were pumping out that many a year then.

 

[Pmt133]

So I started investigating, probing with a screwdriver and took some measurements. The first big thing was putting a straight edge on the hull and checking for a hook. Can report no meaningful discrepancies in levelness. There is an unevenness in the ablative bottom paint from it flaking off over the years causing what I am seeing. It hasn't been painted in 15 years or stored in the water for that either.

I am going to start probing the areas of the deck where repairs were made about 20 years ago so I can get eyes on the stringers. I am hoping I can save the stringers but I am not holding my breath. I will try and get some photos too.

 

[Pmt133]

I peeled back where dad made a repair about 20 years ago. (quick fix then which was supposed to be corrected and never was) From what 7 year old me remembered, it looks exactly the same still. I investigated around the fuel tank and all wood in that area appears to be solid still. Perhaps it isn't as bad as I initially thought but at this point I need to decide if I will commit or not. And I guess make an actual thread dedicated to the restoration if I do. I appreciate all the input everyone.

 

[Scott Danforth]

I see a full gut-n-restore from the pictures

 

[Chris1956]

If that is the good stuff, what is the bad stuff? Put a sander on it and then vacuum and see what it looks like. It needs to be clean and solid, with no rotted pieces and mildew.

 

[Pmt133]

I see a full gut-n-restore from the pictures

If that is the good stuff, what is the bad stuff? Put a sander on it and then vacuum and see what it looks like. It needs to be clean and solid, with no rotted pieces and mildew.

I pulled back the beauty cover around the fuel tank about a foot further up and everything up there is clean and solid. But you can't patch a stringer. The nice thing? I'll have most of a template to go off of but that doesn't really help that much. I think I am going to start cleaning out the garage.

Edit: that is the bad stuff. That is the worst area on the boat pictured.

 

[ZippyDoodah2]

There are valleys in the hull to allow water to get to the motor well and pumped out. Cut through the stringers and what not. Only about 1 inch round tho

 

[Pmt133]

I'm just going to throw a piece of ply over the soft spot, ignore it for a year or two more then just can the whole thing. At this point... I'm done.

 

[briangcc]

It's your decision but in all honesty, given the mold, de-laminating/rotting structure and standing water in the pics, I don't think I'd be comfortable using it given its current state.

 

[Pmt133]

It's your decision but in all honesty, given the mold, de-laminating/rotting structure and standing water in the pics, I don't think I'd be comfortable using it given its current state.

That puddle of water is actually from the bilge because the nose is down in the driveway.

But that all doesn't matter. Absolutely no one around me said they'd lend a hand if I were to do it. I can't do every thing myself. Well I can but you have to draw a line for certain things... guess I know better then to always offer my help free to anyone now. Run it till the engine lets loose and then trash it. Oh well.

 

[Baylinerchuck]

That’s a shame. I completely restored my 20’ Chaparral by myself. Mine may have been a little easier since it was an open bow. That said, any boat from this era will be rotted unless it was restored. The 3.0 is a good motor, and extremely reliable. It would make a decent boat if restored, and last many, many years. Ultimately the decision is yours.