Advice needed on material for major repairs

[Trooper82]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

My understanding is that you need to grind/rough up the old surface, then use acetone right before you are going to glass over it. The grinding/sanding is just top layer, to get rid of any wax or surface agents used originally. The acetone will soften the old glass up so you get a good bond...not a pro...just what I have read on here...

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

MCDC, no offense dude, but IMHO you are WAY overthinking this. Basically you just need to replace the rotten stuff, grind down the old glass, wash it all down with acetone and glass it all back in with VE Peanut Butter and CSM and 1708. Finish it off with Paint or Gelcoat. Relax and just and "Git er Dun" It is not Brain Surgery!!!

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Just heard several people around here that said VE to VE may not bond based on their experience with boards and small one man boats. The issue with the inners stringer came up with US Comp when asked about inserting the ply against the glass that is still in place in the cabin and was told not to use VE as it needed air to cure. We have removed the outer glass and ply on this section and left the inner glass in place that was filled with foam. Thanks for the replies!!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Air cure? I'm not sure what they meant by this.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Steve at US Comp. said since I am going to leave the old glass behind the ply that was removed, I should use an epoxy (the layer of glass that is really enclosing the foam section) and glue the ply to it with thickened epoxy, then use the VE and glass I have removed the panel on the left of this picture

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

As long as everything is prepped and cleaned correctly .. I see no reason why not to use just VE resin.

Air cure..hmm..

Unless I am missing something here..

YD.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

This is what i received from them...........
Vinyl Ester is for laminating fiberglass, carbon fiber or Kevlar. It does not work as a glue. It will not work between two solid surfaces, because the styrene needs to rise to surface (breathe) and be able to evaporate. Use epoxy if bonding 2 pieces together.


Steve,

Web: http://www.uscomposites.com/

Do you have a brand of Vinyl Ester you find that works better than others? Looking at US Composites........not sure why it is sooooo cheap? .I have used HI Bond Ployester before but the price for their VE is more than West Systems epoxy !!!!!!
Thanks for the help!!

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

VE, PE, epoxy do not air cure at all, ever. Just put some saran wrap over and watch it get hard. Everyone thinks that you can smell styrene gassing off. Truth is pure styrene is odorless. Some styrene will gas off just because it is a solvent, but it does not have to, its part of the polymerization process. The reason epoxy is "stronger" is because it has a higher elongation than PE or VE (bends before it breaks). VE elongagtion is higher than PE. Very hard PE called DPDE are also used next the the gelcoat on cheaper boats because they help prevent print through. Acetone does not soften resin but it will clean oils and waxes and dust off of the surface. Methyelene chloride will soften but don't ever use it. I doubt the boat was built with all VE, to expensive. Many companies are using VE next to the gelcoat as a barrier against blistering but then switch to PE for laminating everything else. You could do the repairs with PE and if done properly will last longer than you will (its the wood that rotted, remember). The actual bond will be mostly mechanical no matter which system you use. If everything is abraded and clean and overlapped to the "good" glass it will be stronger than you need.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

What they told you is sort of correct, but a little misleading.

VE can make a very good adhesive, not as good as epoxy, but in this case it would have made very little difference in which was used.

There is no need for it breathe, how does he think it is used in closed molding applications where there is no opportunity for it to breathe.

Most here use polyester to replace the wood in transoms using the exact same procedure you used. Bare glass surface....polyester resin used as a putty or with mat between the plywood and bare glass.....the two are clamped together....when cured the plywood is glassed over. This creates a very stong transom which will see far more stress than what you are rebuilding.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Thanks guys!! I really did not understand his logic either. Do you have a VE that you perfer............ready to order materials

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

This is a copy and paste from your thread on the other site.

06-15-2012, 10:14 PM
ondarvr
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005
Rep: 305 Posts: 697
Location: Monroe WA

Many times you won't know the actual brand of resin. The retail suppliers buy it in drums from the few large manufacturers and then pour it down into smaller containers and put their own labels on it. They may also change suppliers depending price, so it is what it is sometimes. You may be able to find a supplier that can tell you who made it, but it won't make much of a difference, they will all work well.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Thanks ondarvr for your help and endurance!! Just wondering why US Composites was half the price of all others........as you replied, looks like Dow makes most of it. Thanks again

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Lots of people make resin besides Dow. US comp is cheaper because they sell a lot of it. Resin has a shelf life and some of the distributers have to up the price because if they don't sell it in time they have to discard it at very expensive Hazmat handling costs. Someone has to pay for that.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Update, It took months to decide which boat to purchase and at this point I can say " I could build a better boat than these procuction boats".. hours of forums on who had the best boats and decided on Sea Ray because of the so called " Fit and finish".......what a joke.......stringers stapled together, glass so thin on the inner stringer at the fuel area I can see thru it.... hope you do not have to remove the fuel tank on one of these!!!! ton of voids in the glass, water traped because of the drain access, bedding PL that is not even under the ply, ply not sealed, miss drilled holes under the rub rail and not sealed!!!!!!!!!! No way to get water that gets in around the shower sum out....and it will happenn!!!got to be a better way

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Just finished removing the star board engine stringer along with the fuel area stringer on this 280 and needed some advice. The boat is on the trailer with the bunks under the outer stringers and the trailer is blocked on stands. We have constructed cradles under the two inner stringers systems from the transom thru the mid-section of the boat. Would it now be wise to go ahead and remove port side as well or do I need to replace one at the time. If I need to replace one at the time, can I go ahead and bed the stringers with epoxy bedding and then remove the port side and glass them all in one shot? The other question is, can I remove the old stringer glass back to the hull so I can remove this "bondo" bedding to make it easier to remove........right now I have a 1 or 2 inch lip.
Thanks guys!!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

I think you could do all of the stringers at one time at this point.

Its the Bulkheads that might cause issue.

As long as you have the hull deck joint fairly close to original you should be fine to glass in your bulkies as well.

YD.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

The other question is, can I remove the old stringer glass back to the hull so I can remove this "bondo" bedding to make it easier to remove........right now I have a 1 or 2 inch lip.
Thanks guys!!

Should be fine doing this as well.

Have any updated pics ?

YD.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Will post some soon.......hot as heck in there this week!!! Anothe question, planning on cutting down the glass to the hull to remove the bondo, what would be the best to bed with? I might go with epoxy since the shelf life is much longer and it looks like this one is going to take some time!!!
Thank!!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Will post some soon.......hot as heck in there this week!!! Anothe question, planning on cutting down the glass to the hull to remove the bondo, what would be the best to bed with? I might go with epoxy since the shelf life is much longer and it looks like this one is going to take some time!!!
Thank!!

It makes little difference in what you use to bed them, you can use epoxy, 5200, foam, removable wood strips, something like PL premium, or nothing.

The only purpose is to prevent creating hard spots where the plywood stringer comes in contact with the hull.

As for how many stringers to do at one time....this is totally dependent on how well the hull is supported and how much it flexes. If you can walk around and feel no flexing with no support, or if the hull is supported well so it doesn't deform from you walking around, then all the stringers can be done at one time. If the hull starts flexing or changes while you have all the stringers out it can be very difficult to line it back up again.

 

[mcdc1224]

Re: Advice needed on material for major repairs

Thanks guys!! With the one side out, it does not flex at all so I will also try the other one