ADHD behaviour

tomatolord · Jan 8, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

i tend to agree with the flatb and chief... The add and adhd syndrome kids i have seen is simple a great lack of parental discipline. my wife and i spend a lot of time working with our children to give them the skills to cope with LIFE how not to be frustrated how to deal with other people how to deal with your anger how to pay attention how to focus how to treat people with respect and why These things are NOT taught in school they are taught at home. Your friend IMHO does NOT need drugs she needs counseling to help her learn how to deal with frustration or her anger. Drugs will for short time stop the behavior but they cannot cure the behavior. It works like this...and i have researched this and talked to many mental health experts. 1- take a drug to slow the behavior 2- get counseling to learn how to stop the behavior 3 - get off the drug once you have learned how to deal with the behavior. i have "experienced" 3 adhd kids - I will NEVER EVER trust my children to be alone with them, they have never learned any discipline from their parents. All these drugs do is make them zombies so they do not act up, but they do not know right from wrong, they are just passive. tomatolord

Homerr · Jan 8, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

Couldn't have said it better Tomatolord! H.

spratt · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

TL, I honestly thought I would be the only one here with these felings. I also worked with some Mental Health Pro's and talked with them about this stuff...

jtexas · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

I was diagnosed with ADD at age 36. It was a defining moment in my life. The medication is wonderful. I don't relly "feel" different, but my desk is no longer so disorganized that I can't find anything, I can engage in a conversation & remember what was said, same with meetings. Sometimes weekends/holidays I don't take the meds, I don't feel different but the wife can tell. It is a physical limitation, not a mental one. Could I get by without the meds? Sure. And if you asked me to carry two forty pound weights around, I could do it, but eventually I'd have to set them down. Bro chris, you can't attribute all those symptoms you named to ADHD alone, especially not in an adult, not unless you're a professional trained to rule out any other conditions. BTW tomatolord, if the drugs make them zombies, then they are misdiagnosed or else improperly medicated. I guess a lot of teachers convince parents that their kids need ADD meds because it makes 'em easier to deal with. I hate it when that happens.

lakelivin · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

Gotta second jtexas. I'm sure ADD is overdiagnosed and meds used improperly just because some kids are hyperactive. Agree that part needs to be curtailed. But this IS a recognized disease (condition) that can be almost debilitating for those that really have it. Take another look at DDs post above: "but lecture classes I always failed. I could not take notes, it was too distracting. By the time I wrote 1 note, the subject had changed and I had missed too much. I could never look out of a window because I might see something. If I saw a bird flying by, where most poeple might look for a second and say what a pretty bird, then get back to work I would stare at it for a while watching it fly. I would then start thinking about air currents, how birds fly, then it would go to comparing that to an airplane or the clouds and how these things flowed through the air. Next thing I knew I would be called on to answer a question and have no clue what was asked." Trust me, this is NOT a matter of lack of effort or concentration. You notice you're daydreaming, REALLY focus on the work at hand, but then a bit later you realize that you've been staring out the window again for the past ten minutes without even realizing it. For those who truely have ADD you can say it's just a lack of effort, focus, or concentration, but thats like comparing two people trying to swim across a lake; one with just his bathing suit on and another that has a ten or twenty pound weight attached to him. You see that the weighted swimmer is struggling compared to the other one and can blame it on the fact that he's not focusing or trying hard enough, but you'd be missing the point. I know ADD can be overdiagnosed and kids over (and inappropriately) medicated. I also realize that ADD can be hard to understand if you've never experienced it. But for those who've got it, theres no doubt its real (also verified by the medical community; there are even some studies showing differences in brain scans between ADD sufferers and those without it). Short vent: It can be really frustrating for those who suffer from it to listen to people with no medical expertise totally discount it and label ADD sufferers as lazy, unfocused, undisciplined, etc.

deputydawg · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

If a person truly has ADHD the medication will not make any real noticable difference on their life as far as acting like a zombie or acting drugged out. There will be a marked difference in their job or school performance. I had an abundance of parental disciplin. My house we had our jobs to do, and they better be done. After school, I had to feed the hogs, horses, cows, then it was homework for 2 hours. Even if all our assignments were done, then it was study what we had already done. We had to sit at the dining room table with no TV, no radio, just our school books. This was study time. After that we had free time until supper was ready. After that we cleaned up, had a chance to watch TV for a little while, then bedtime. Weekends were spent cutting firewood, working around the place, whatever needed done. We were taught that work first, then play. If we didn't cut wood we were cold since that was our only heat in the house. We did have a lot of fun times too, hunting fishing camping playing games as a family whatever. I got into a lot of trouble growing up, but no more than the usual boy. When I did I had my parents to deal with. There was definately nop lack of disciplin with that, until dad went trucking. Then I had mom to deal with which was worse. Plus I had to take care of the house since he was gone all week. It was up to me to do all of the work with the livestock, split and haul wood, all of the stuff dad used to do during the week. This started when I was in 5th grade until my senior year when he changed jobs and we moved to be together as a family again. In my case there was no lack of disciplin. I see now in many many cases this is the real problem. I have been told if I wouldn't be watching out of the window or whatever during classes I wouldn't have had any problems. But that was not all of it. During a lesson on say George Washington crossing the river in his boat. The teacher would be telling or reading about that and I would be listening and paying attention. But then my mind would get stuck on the mental image of them crossing the deleware. I would be stuck with that picture until all of a sudden I would see that the rest of the class had moved on. Or an example like in math the teacher would say something like you have 2 apples, get two more how many would you have. My mind would go to what kind of apples, what do they look like, who gave them to me, what would I do with them, maybe we could make pie with them. If I was able to catch myself doing this, I could stop and get back to the topic but usually I wouldn't even realize I was doing this for 3 or 4 minutes. I had a few good teachers that would see me do this and somehow bring me back to real time by walking past me or asking me a question they knew I could answer. This is what I have lived with and still do. I was very lucky to be able to get around this on my own. I have been diagnosed 3 different times so I know it is there. I refuse to use it as a crutch or as an excuse for anything. It is just the way I am, and is what makes me who I am. I have to work a little harder than some people, but there is nothing I can't do if I want to. I think that for some like me there are other ways besides medication to overcome the difficulties, but then for many medication is the way to go. If it is used correctly and when it is truely needed then it is a wonderful thing. Medication is there to be used as a tool not a crutch. Like JTexas said he feels no real difference but can see he is more productive. That is how it should be. One other thing I see in myself, the harder I push myself to focus on one thing the harder it is for me to stay focused.

AK_Chappy · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

DD, You have given me a lot to think about on this. You have just described my middle son, I think. At least on the outward side. He is a very bright boy, but just can't seem to stay focused. I get spoooled up right thru the roof when he is working on his homework. Your last line could be part of it. I am beginning to think he might have the same problem, the harder he tries to focus the more difficult it is to focus. If I schedule a doctor's appt for him, what should I tell the doc? I am at a total loss on it. AK Chappy

jtexas · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

I hear ya LL & DD, what me & my parents heard most from my teachers was "if he would just apply himself...." I skated through school, cramming at exam time (because a deadline triggers some need to focus). I can get absorbed in a computer game, and next thing I know it's getting light outside. Games like first-person shooter, simulation or strategy games provide a butt-load of stimulation & just get a strangle-hold on my brain. But I never, ever use it as an excuse for anything, and I don't accept it from my daughter (or anyone else) as an excuse for bad behavior. If you want to call medication a "crutch" that's fine with me. Would you take crutches away from a guy with a broken leg? I expect not.

deputydawg · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

jtexas, only some use it as a crutch, others do not and truly benefit from it as intended. I appluad you and your ability to seek and accept help. Chappy, I duppose it would depend on how your son is doing in school. If he is involved in special ed or special services, then it may be better to express your concerns with the teacher. If he is doing poor in school but not in special services then talk with his teacher about your concerns. Older teachers often ignore the symptoms and lock themselves into the old school way of thinking and automatically try to use disciplin and punishment to improve attention span. Younger teachers often jump to conclusions. If you talk to the school staff. You will find yourself thrown into a world of all kinds of special services most people don't know exist. WIth the no child left behind laws things haved changed for most states, and your school should have the resources to help you with this. They will also start an IEP independant education plan and try to adjust the teaching methods to the child. They will still teach the same, but will adjust the way it is presented. I had a military recruiter tell me a year or so ago that if a child is put on certain medications for this they may be denied military service due to being prescribed a mind altering drug in their medical past. I will check with my wife and get ideas, she has been working in schools with ADD children for years. She might have beter advice for you.

AK_Chappy · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

He was actually selected for the Advanced Programs at the school. But, he doesn't get his homework done, unless I am here to keep him on track. So he got booted back to the basic classes. He would get straight A's if he could focus on his homework. Grrr, frustrates me sometimes. He did fit a lot of your descriptions though. He is very easily distracted and will stay distracted until redirected, which is where I come in. Thanks in advance for any and all advice. AK Chappy

K Hultgre · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

JT, Chappy, BC I was once a non believer in the ADD/ADHD hype. Over diagnosed, used as a crutch, not enough discipline at home, etc. Until it was suggested my then 9yr old get tested. I was in denial and disbelief that she could have this, kept telling myself that her actions were normal for a 9yr old. We went through a testing site on line (recommended by her Doctor) where the wife and I answered questions about her actions and difficulties then requested 2 of her teachers also take the test. The wife and both teachers results came back with a 90% probability she has ADD (not ADHD). Mine, well lets say she's Daddy's girl. After researching ADD to try and understand this "catch all phrase" I finally put my pride aside and looked at the issues in real light. The answer was obvious, we would try the medication for a month to see if it makes a difference. She has been taking "Concerta" for almost 5 months and what a difference it has made. No longer do I have to explain math concepts for 1/2hr until I get frustrated, point out obvious mistakes with reading comprehension questions, try to make it through the combativeness (being told I was so mean and that she hates me, because I am making her feed the dogs, pick up her mess), and listening to daily problems at school with other kids in her class (being told she was dumb, stupid, etc). It is different that I now know just by her actions when she has taken her medications (yes, she has lied to me about taking it). The medication is a trial and error concerning the dosage and which one (Concerta, Ritilin, etc). She is still the same person just that now she is able to keep a converstion on one subject, finish a project she started, and does not have the daily issues with other kids in her class. Also, is scoring much better on her homework. In retrospect all the signs were there I just wasn't watching. Now after all this the wife is thinking she needs to be tested also. I think it is a good idea

(Actually she does similar things, drops something from the counter "curses", bumps into a wall or chair "curses") The Psyc has her on "Zoloft" and that is helping. So "pride", its time to take a back seat again. So by all means if you think there is a problem get an appt with a Dr.

brother chris · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

Sorry for taking so long to post....no internet at home, only at work. To answer some questions asked here: My friend is 31 years old. She has stopped taking all medications that she used to buy off the street. And from all that I read here, and researched, it seems to me that it is not ADHD. I'm not a doctor and I'm probably wrong, but it sounds like tourette syndrome. I have so far got to stop swearing when I'm around her. I've never heard the "F" word as much as I have in the past couple months since I have been helping her. It was just crazy, almost every 4th to 5th word was the "F" word. ALL DAY LONG! We never ended up going to the doctor today, but we are going tomorrow morning. And I think that she needs a psychologist or psychiatrist. I guess we will find out tomorrow. Thanks for all this info. I'll post after the doctors visit. Cheers, Brother Chris.

11 footer · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

EDIT: Ryan, sometimes you have the sensitivity of a rock.

deputydawg · Jan 10, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

AK Chappy One thing to check out with your son is this. Maybe he is bored with classes and can't keep on focus out of bordom? My sister has always been the other way with her studies. She was a very bright student, and was ahead of her class in everything. But she was so bored she didn't want to go to school, didn't study at all, didn't try hard at anything. It wasn't until high school when she was offered college prep classes and advanced classes that she felt challenged enough to do better. She isn't a genious at all, but in elementary and middle school was ahead of the rest of her class. Also in high school the studies caught up to her and she did good. One thing I do know, don't rely on one test only. Test the child a few times, a few weeks apart to make sure other life events are not getting in the way. As everyone knows, one day might be more stressful or distracting than another. Either have several teachers assist with diagnosis or test on several different days before a final assessment can be made. It is often hit and miss with the meds until they get regulated. Also a lot of the meds it is required to take the child off of the meds during summer months when school is out. Regular checks are also important with some of the meds to make regular doctor checkups as the meds often need to be adjusted for the growth of the child or in extreme cases like lithium the drug will build up levels in the system.

tomatolord · Jan 11, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

Ok - for a child now - show me the study that shows a physical cause for add or adhd....There is no medical cause for this behavior. IT IS SYMPTOMS only - that is why the British medical journal has FORBIDDEN doctors to prescribe ANY drug expect for prozac to children. That is why the american medical association also agrees YOU are doing your children a tremendous disservice by giving them drugs that have NEVER EVER been approved for children by the FDA or any other medical assocation. Bipolar can be medically proven adhd cannot. The issue is to DEAL with your kids, deal with the problems they have, deal with life, not through a drug. Get the counseling but dont take the drug There is a great book called The Edge Effect Read it and it will open your mind to something you never realized.

jtexas · Jan 11, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

AK Chappy, here's some other info to consider. Without realizing it, a person learns compensating strategies for dealing with ADHD. For example, you get good at bluffing your way through situations where you don't know something you should know. You get good at "cramming" for exams because you don't study or keep up during the term. You get good at thinking up excuses for not having homework. You might even "self-medicate" like Bro Chris's friend. You don't pick up on non-verbal cues or facial expressions during discussions, so you find that suddenly somebody's mad at you but you have no idea why. Don't forget this one - if your son claims that he didn't know you were angry, it's not unlikely. You don't make eye contact, or really "engage" the other person in a conversation, which hinders making friends. You have poor impulse control, so you might say things you wouldn't have said if you waited a second or two. Or you might just jump off the roof because it seems like a good idea at that second. Parents & teachers have a hard time believing that you forgot what they said just ten or even five minutes ago, but in fact you didn't "forget" because you never really got it in the first place, because your mind took a little 30-second vacation during that part of the lecture. One quirk of ADD is that some activities, like maybe computer programming and games, especially simulations, can totally capture my attention for extended periods. I mean all night, or even days at a time. Don't think of ADD/ADHD as "abnormal." There have probably been times in human history when it was an asset, whereas ability to focus on homework would have been irrelevant. ADD people are usually cheerful, resourceful, smart and competent. Able to intuitively formulate creative solutions to complex problems. "Divergent thinkers," recognizing patterns and relationships between objects that "normal" people would never have discovered. Properly managed treatment with meds will not affect any of these traits. "Kinesthic learners," we learn best by doing, not so much by watching or listening. I can't critize tomatolord's position; it's a rational widely-held point of view. These are all just my own words spoken from personal life experience. If your doctor doesn't believe in ADD/ADHD, or isn't comfortable prescribing meds for it, find another doctor. Finally, understand how ADD/ADHD affects his behavior, but don't accept it as an excuse for bad behavior. Accomodate his learning differences, but don't lower your standards. Hang it there! If your experience is anything like mine, it'll be a relief to learn that a) there is really a problem and b) there's something you can about it. BTW Bro Chris, sorry about hijacking your thread.

P.S. I reread my last post & realized I sounded a bit "testy" - didn't intend that at all. Sorry.

lakelivin · Jan 11, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

DD & JT: I'd suggest a second analogy. Some may use ADD or ADD meds as an excuse or crutch. But for those that truely have the disease, I'd suggest that meds are more like eyeglasses for the nearsighted. Can get away without them in the right situation (like working at a computer for the nearsighted; or a job where there is alot of stimulation and variation in responsibilities for the ADD patient [sound familiar, DD?]}. But put the nearsighted person behind the wheel of a car without glasses, or an untreated ADD patient in a desk job, and you've likely got problems. AK, look at jtx's post above. He states that it's just from his experience, but I've read a fair amount about the disease and his experience sumarizes much that you'll find in the medical literature. By the way, my experience was similar to jtx's in many ways as well. I'd suggest instead of approaching your family doc about ADD you find a specialist in your area. I suspect the overmedication and misuse of drugs for ADD is often because it's not treated by experts. tomatolord, I haven't got time right now to look up any of the medical literature about ADD, but I'll try to provide some links later. I can assure you it is a formally recognized condition by the American Psychiactric Asociation (or whatever their name is). It has it's own specific CPT Code. Furthermore, you state that "YOU are doing your children a tremendous disservice by giving them drugs that have NEVER EVER been approved for children by the FDA or any other medical assocation." In actuality, most ADD drugs are either approved only for children by the FDA or were approved for children well before they were approved for adults. Note that I'm not saying that there are probably alot of kids given meds for ADD who shouldn't be; but I strongly disagree with your inference that there is no such condition as ADD.

JB · Jan 11, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

One of my grandsons was diagnosed as ADD, then as retarded. Both were very incorrect. He is 16 now, and is a borderline autistic savant. His Mom is a Nurse (heck, every woman and most of the men in the extended family are RN++ or PT) who researched Chris' behavior and diagnosis and got it right when the Docs didn't (Docs hate it when Nurses correct their errors). He takes NO medication at all and functions well enough. He doesn't like interacting with anything that is not exactly predictable (that means people) but is a genius when dealing with absolutes that react to any stimulus in exactly the same way every time. He has LEARNED to not make outbursts of rage and profanity when confused (usually by human beings). He now simply withdraws and goes away. So, Bro Chris. Very little is known about so-called behavioral diseases and most of that is not understood. The Docs are often wrong, and when they are wrong they often prescribe inappropriately. Good luck.

deputydawg · Jan 11, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

It was said earlier that ADD is not medically diagnosed and BiPolar is. That is an incorrect statement in todays world. Recent studies have shown that ADD is a disease and is diagnosed. In fact it is diagnosed the same as bi-polar, by tests and observations. At least correctly diagnosed. In the past two or three years the diagnosing process has been changed a lot. It used to be considered that if a child especially male children get into trouble more than once a week, and have lower than "average" grades they were ADD and would be medicated. Look at the stats and you will see that a majority of the children diagnosed are male. For many years this condition was diagnosed and described as a lack of control over behavior and was marked by basically getting into trouble. Boys being boys was misdiagnosed as ADD. It became so wasy to medicate a child to the point of easily controlling that childs behavior. In recent years they have changed so much. And yes they are in recent years looking at the medications used and finding some that work better and some that should have never been used. Same with Bi-Polar. It was common for years to use lithium. Recently they are finding that this drug accumulates in teh system and will make the symptoms worse. I have a cousin that is Autistic. His actions are similar to ADD, but different. If he has something that gets his interest he automatically knows and remembers everything about it, similar to ADD but not as prevelant. My cousin likes television programs. He will read the TV guide for his satellite TV programming and memorize it in one setting. If I would call him right now and ask what is on HBO at 2:30A.M. next tuesday, he will be able to tell me what is on, what it is about and who the lead actors are. But you ask him what year the United States gained it's independance he will have no clue. Now from my own perspective. I grew up failing school. Teachers and everyone on the outside said it was lack of parental disciplin. That was the farthest thing from the trutrh, and I can not even begin to explain how it effected my life hearing that. The more I studied the worse I did on all classes. My parents made me study longer when my grades failed. I would read and re-read each chapter in my books, try to write notes out of the book, read things to a tape recorder and play it back to myself over and over and still fail. But if I waited until the last second to study and crammed I would get high grades. I work better under pressure. Not distractions, but if I am under the gun on a deadline I do well. I also lived my school life with teachers and my parents saying I didn't apply myself, was lazy, was a dreamer and just didn't try. Up until about the 5th grade I would be so angry all of the time. Not because of my condition, but because every day I heard these things and I didn't know why I couldn't do better. All I wanted was to get even a C on a paper to make everyone happy, but just couldn't do it. My corner that I did well in was shop classes. Wood shop I failed because we did a lot of drafting which I couldn't do. I re-built my first engine at age 15 with no books and had no idea of how. I took it apart and it all fell into place exactly how it works. The only thing I did was I called a shop for torque specs. I don't think there is anything mechanical I couldn't fix. I rebuilt an automatic transmission by the time I was 17. I had a book but only glanced through it to get specs. Both the engine and transmission are still running to this day, almost 20 years later. I taught myself to weld in about 5 minutes, and just do well with mechanical things. I do well in my current job because I love it and it is high stress. I thrive on stress. Also like was said earlier things that are fast moving and captivating like video games, ADD people do well. I know this too. I have sat down and played a video game honestly for 12 hours only stopping for the bathroom, without even knowing how much time has passed. When I stopped I thought I had spent about 3 hours until I saw the sun come up. I guess I feel strongly about this condition because it has effected me so deeply. I have never been on medication. I have found other ways to compensate. I feel some days it would be so much better, but so far have not taken any. My mother still gets angry at me if the topic ADD is brought up. She still says it was lazieness, or even blames the teachers I had growing up. Because of the times I grew up, the outlook of the teachers and my parents, and everyone pidgeonholing me into a category I spent a lot of my elementary school years in depression. I didn't know how anyone could not understand that I was doing my best, but it was never good enough. It is a very real condition. It is overdiagnosed. It is used as a crutch, but it is also greatly effecting peoples lives. When diagnosed correctly and treated correctly it is easy to live with. Because of the people blind to this or not wanting to admit it is real, those that suffer from it and yes I do say suffer live in isolation, depression, and feel very low self opinions. Live your life like I or Jtexas has described. Then have someone blame you or your parents for not working hard enough or not disciplining you or whatever the other excuses are. It is a very real medically proven condition, and until daignosed can destroy lives. Once diagnosed, just the knowledge of why it is easy to live with.

lakelivin · Jan 11, 2005

Re: ADHD behaviour

brother chris: sorry that this thread seems to have morphed into a general ADD one instead of dealing with your specific issue. just seems like it's of enough general interest to let it keep going. AK Chappy: a suggestion you might try to informally 'test' the ADD possibility. How much caffeine does your son drink? If not too much (occasional cokes, etc.), have him drink a cup of strong coffee some saturday 15 or 20 minutes before you've scheduled a study session. See if that makes a difference. Many ADDers unknowingly self medicate with caffeine. I never drank coffee till I had to pull an all nighter for a test the next day in college. Focus 'locked' into place like I'd never experienced before; I'm sure some of it was due to the 'panic factor' which helps ADDers focus, but all night cramming was a regular habit, so there was more to it than that. Didn't realize till 15 years later that the caffeine was probably the difference. Problem with caffeine for ADD is that you become accustomed to it and need more and more to get a therapeutic effect. But might be an interesting and harmless informal test for your son. If it helps him focus I'd say that points towards ADD. If he gets wired and has more trouble focusing, maybe not. Not suggesting this as a substitue for a professional evaluation, but the results might even be useful to a doc.

ADHD behaviour

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