A small note on global warming.

BoatBuoy

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Re: A small note on global warming.

gspig said:
First off, Global warming is a joke. The "threat" is climate change. Secondly, climate change happens. Nothing man can do to keep the climate static. Has anyone heard of the giant desserts in Africa? Those at one time were rain forests. Man caused that? Ice ages came and went without man's intervention. If man cannot be adaptable, then man should die off (Dawin theory).

Well, that should put an end to that argument.
 

bekosh

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Re: A small note on global warming.

OK I admit it. GW is an idiot. He's been drinking the liberal kool-aid.d:):love:
 

POINTER94

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Re: A small note on global warming.

I have to agree that we are in contact with space aliens and they are going to provide an unlimited supply of energy from each grain of sand. Willy show us something to substantiate your breakthrough energy potentials, I don't care if it is from Art Bell.

Technology is what technology is. Pretending that it exists to further an arguement is of course laughable. Can anyone think who would be the richest man in the world if we could develop a truely alternative fuel? No incentive there... Meanwhile the venom of inuendo regarding Bush and some mysterious group know as big oil swirls around unchecked for fact or even common sense, while Kool-aid is served at the Pelosi defense group. China is spewing more pollution a day into the amostphere than 3 billion Suburbans can produce in a year. But hey, a little unsubstantiated guilt never hurt anyone. :}

Lets spead some hate:

http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2007/01/global-warming-fascism.html

Hey lets not forget how a liberal goregazm (ethanol) can turn around and hit us in the pocket. Not exactly the utopia painted for us last year. And lets not forget the damage this worthless fuel does to our equipment and its decrease in engine efficiency resulting in increased fuel consumption.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/01/23/ethanol-energy-conservation-biz-energy-cz_jf_0123ethanol_print.html

Technology can be driven, by relinquishing governments grip on every aspect of our lives and livelihoods not by enhancing their involvment and of course limitations involved in working with government.

Every last one of those listed manufacturers will benefit by government regulation. It is now the new bastion of walling out lower tech, cheaper foreign products. NSF certification is also one of the great new ways to wall off foreign products. Good or bad. But it really isn't free market economics. Its more like say, hmmmm, like, socialism?
 

WillyBWright

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Re: A small note on global warming.

I was quoting Your President, Pointer. Your point of lack of credibility is well taken. ;)

All kidding aside, production of hydrogen by splitting water molecules is possible using hydroelectric power, wind generators, and solar arrays. It would be used in battery/electric hybrid vehicles that would be charged by the same power sources for short range, and generated by hydrogen engines or fuel cells for long range.

Hydrogen isn't the only source for power in fuel cells. Methane can also be used. Public sewage fermentors can be designed to collect the gas and compress it. Same would apply with farm livestock manure fermentors.

Prospects of Cold Fusion have made strides, and rumor has it that China is close to a working model and may indeed already have one.

Ethanol, while reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, has little advantage regarding production of greenhouse gasses. When burned, it produces CO2 just like petroleum. Except it's only other by-product is water instead of the multitude of nasty compounds made when petroleum burns. But it's still not the answer in the long run.

I could provide links, but you can google it easy enough and choose any of thousands of sources. It's all over the web. No need to burden the iboats servers.
 

POINTER94

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Re: A small note on global warming.

No offense intended with this comment Willy, but I am therefore to understand that there are no sources for any of the the above listed breakthrough's?

I am sorry but methane is nice but hardly a reliable fuel to relieve our dependance on oil.
 

WillyBWright

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Re: A small note on global warming.

Wikipedia is an excellent source for all I mention. You can plug in the terms and save iboats a lot of bandwidth. ;)

Actual development of antimatter as a potential power source is only in it's infancy, but it has been been proven to exist and we can make it in miniscule amounts. Consider that when our eldest generation was young, atomic power was just a theroy. Look where we are now. When my children are grandparents, they may very well look at antimatter as we look at atomic fuels. Wikipedia's article about that is quite interesting. Look it up. :)

The technologies for most of what I mentioned has existed for decades. What hasn't existed is the need. Fossil fuel was plentiful and cheap. It's coming to an end, and with China finally entering the twentieth century, it's going to go fast. ( Yes I know it's the twenty-first century. They're a little behind. ) The infrastructure we lack now is going to have to evolve, and evolve quickly. Private enterprise may need a hand from government, but the market will decide in the end. Government, through emissions regulations and development incentives, has the means to move us forward by leaps and bounds. Unfortunately a Texas Oil Millionaire President has little reason to pursue it and every reason not to. But time marches on despite his shortsightedness. After all, would you still like to be heating your home with coal-fired boilers like your grandparents probably did?

My father's Uncle Ed wrote a book called Automotive Electric or something like that. It's about electric cars, and he wrote it way back before I was born, probably in the 40s. My older brother has the only copy I am aware of and right now he's in Maine and the book is up by Lake Superior. But I sure would like to see what Uncle Ed wrote about it way back then. I'm sure it would make a very fascinating read given today's worsening oil situation.
 

CJY

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Re: A small note on global warming.

POINTER94 said:
No offense intended with this comment Willy, but I am therefore to understand that there are no sources for any of the the above listed breakthrough's?

I am sorry but methane is nice but hardly a reliable fuel to relieve our dependance on oil.

Methane is also a greenhouse gas. What would be the point of increasing methane use if GW is one of the reasons for new technology?
 

WillyBWright

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Re: A small note on global warming.

We're facing two separate problems with potentially identical solutions. Reduce greenhouse gas production and wean ourselves off petroleum. Ethanol and Methane won't help regarding greenhouse gasses, but the technology exists and it can reduce a significant portion of petroleum dependence. Besides, methane is there one way or another. We can let it out into the atmosphere, or burn it and utilize it's energy. Producing Ethanol is something of a mistake in my opinion, but we can make it now and we can use it now. We can grow it's source, and we can use parts of the plant that would otherwise go to waste. However it's usefulness is only going to go so far.

Other technologies hold more promise. Most will be slower coming, but we have the technlogy, or are on the verge of it.

I'm still not convinced that CO2 is the big enemy here. Every plant on Planet Earth loves the stuff and thrives with more of it. Coupled with warmer temperatures, I would think it logical that plant life would blossom and turn that gas into oxygen and equalize it's effect. It's more a matter of not getting so hot that it kills-off the plants, or that other compounds don't squelch the photosynthesis process. That would include ozone depleters allowing enough UV in to kill the plants, or at least damage them.
 

QC

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Re: A small note on global warming.

Gang O' Global Warming discussion,

Something needs to be clarified here. Methane is indeed a greenhouse gas. It is also the primary constituent of all "Natural Gas" that you use in pipelines, usually over 95%. The use of Methane in internal combustion engines absolutely reduces our dependence on oil. It also reduces total Greenhouse Gasses (GHGs) in most applications. Yes, there can be methane emissions in the exhaust, where with a gasoline or diesel engine there are none. However, the reduction of CO2 vs. those other two fuels is high enough to result in a net reduction in total GHGs in most applications. Also, there are catalysts that are used to "burn" methane in the exhaust as well.

The product that I have been living, breathing, selling, and they even let the stupid salesman help with designing once and a while, has certified GHG emission reductions of over 22% with after-treatment (catalyst) and over 8% "engine out". In the world of GHGs these are big numbers. This is over a complete operating "cycle" on max output ratings of 400 and 500 bhp respectively. They also reduce NOx and particulate emissions. I know I sound a little like jdeagro pitching Smart Tabs, but the most frustrating thing for me (and jdeagro) is the above is all true.

There are a whole list of reasons that a transition to alternative fuels is painfully slow. The biggest is that the "need" is minimal and the pain is high from a commercial perspective. It is not because big oil taps my phone and threatens me at conferences, they in fact sell the stuff too.

The biggest barrier is fueling infrastructure. Consider for a moment though that Natural Gas is available in pipelines over almost the entire planet. It is already piped to most houses in commercially viable markets. it is compressible or can be liquefied for on-board storage. It is routinely transported in both forms by trucks, and is viable without pipelines for this reason too (there are remote towns etc. powered by trucked in Natural Gas). Many countries that do not have much oil have shed loads of gas, examples: China, Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Korea, sorta the UK, and even the US to a certain degree. Almost all countries that have oil also have gas too. Natural Gas is also less expensive per BTU than oil over the last 100+ years (no wonder most new power plants use it). I have truck customers in Australia who save over $80K USD per year, per truck. All of that is true too and this is still incredibly hard work.

So let's compare that to Hydrogen, there is really none commercially available. There are no pipelines, there are no huge liquefaction plants. It costs waaaay more per BTU today than natural gas, gasoline, diesel, ethanol, methanol, bio-diesel, propane etc. etc. (if somebody pipes in here and says it is free because you can make it from water I will shoot them with an emoticon machine gun guy or frogger's cat). To store it on-board vehicles (not the only option) they are experimenting with 10,000 PSI compressors (Compressed Natural Gas or CNG is stored at 3600 psi). At 3600 CNG requires 4 times as much space per btu to store than petroleum stuff. At 10,000 psi, H requires over 6 times (I made that up, could be 10, I don't remember, but it sucks). Also, BTW, compression is not free, see threads about relatively teeny tiny air compressors in tech topics . . . Hydrogen is inherently unstable and inherently fussy about staying put. It can get "out" of most storage media and do I have to mention the Hindenburg? Oh and , BTW, our engine system will burn Hydrogen too, so this is not some commercial bashing session. Yes, I am concentrating on vehicles and not other fuel requiring applications, but this is what I know . . . :=

Now also, rotting garbage, landfills, bio stuff creates Methane. I believe this is what Willy and CJY were referring to above. Garbage makes Methane whether you want to capture it or not. Soooooo, imagine for a minute you allow this Greenhouse gas to escape from your land fills. Although this is rare in the US, it is the norm in the third world. Now imagine for a minute that you capture it and generate electricity or I know, how about you run the trucks that bring the garbage to the landfill on the stuff? Great idea!!! Reduce the methane emitted by the landfill and reduces the GHG emissions from those same trucks. Big GHG reduction, right? Extremely expensive, but technically doable and there are a few firms that may have cracked the economic puzzle for that scenario.

I guess the point is that Methane does all of the things above, has a macro Infra-structure in place, is economically viable, and it is still a royal pain in the arse to gain any traction with. None of that good stuff is true for Hydrogen and the bad stuff is worse. Carry on . . .
 

RubberFrog

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Re: A small note on global warming.

That concludes todays lecture.

Study your notes for Fridays test 8)
 

QC

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Re: A small note on global warming.

"Concludes" my arse!! You sir, will take your test in your room for that outburst!!
 
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