A small note on global warming.

[DJ]

Re: A small note on global warming.

I can see why GE would sign on to this, for public image.

GE is the world's largest maker of jet engines. By far, jet engines are the worlds foremost polluters. Yet, we the masses, tend to disregard that fact. Why? We're told otherwise.

The City of Phoenix is a perfect example. Everyone here complains about the air quality about four months, out of the year. (that in itself speaks volumes).

However, we all forget about (for political reasons) the biggest polluter in the valley is Sky Harbor Airport.

Sky Harbor launches 500+ jets per day, most of which are Boeing 737's using GE engines.

Those GE engines put out, on take off, the equivelant of 1000 cars driving 1000 miles. That's just one. Multiply that times 500, not to mention landings.

I' m sorry, my pickup is NOT the enemy.

 

[QC]

Re: A small note on global warming.

I'll save them the trouble aspeck. Conservative rags, and opinion, not based in fact and without references. It's just easier and less contentious this way . . . That's me, peacekeeper :%

But wait, isn't that one guy a climatologist? And doesn't he reference some other climatologists, and doesnt he give references too? Hmmmmmmm . . .

 

[Pony]

Re: A small note on global warming.

or farts!8)

Heres a few degrees.................

 

[DJ]

Re: A small note on global warming.

Pony,

Please lay of the chili, beans and beer.

If I have to, I will be forced to report you to the EPA, FDA, CIA, IRS, DEA, INS, ICE, DHS, FBI, USN, USMC, USAF, OSHA, USCG, and whomever else might be interested, which I'm sure, they all are.

Such a blatant display of wasted energy should involve imprisonment.

Given about twenty years, one of the above "alphabets" will find a way to send you to the "pokey", or gulag-your choice.

 

[CJY]

Re: A small note on global warming.

"KMA, my job and paycheck are both enhanced by these fears."


I guess I would take it personally if it were not so pathetic. Just another instance of a conservative screaming do as I say not as I do.

oldmerc, you never said you had those emotional types on your side of the fence too.

QC, You have called my profession into play on a couple of occasions. I guess you considered it fair play then. No big deal, I filed it away and moved on. For you to believe your profession to be off limits after throwing your opinions around on this topic is nothing short of rediculous. I have avoided your profession on several occasions during such topics , simply out of respect. I chose different this time. It is hard for me to believe any such person could be in any business yet not have that business not affect their beliefs on related topics. In part, I did not want you to believe we all thought you were speaking on this topic with an unbiased opinion.


Facts: 1. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. 2. Burning fossil fuels release CO2 into our atmosphere. 3. Man burns fossil fuels, fossil fuels release CO2.

Show me where I inserted opinions? Show me evidence to the contrary. Let me save you the trouble...it cannot be done.

DJ,

When did I tell you to listen to Gore? I don't listen to him. You do realize Gore did not invent GW.....right? In other words, it has been around alot longer than he has. So in closing, don't listen to him, don't believe him, don't believe it, I don't care.


OMR, you said:

"Hey CJY, Isn't that is just an attempt by the America hating left to make their 'scary' argument a li'l more logical, to further their adjenda to collect more taxes and let their buds the Chinese crush us, ,"

I don't know....I guess you make a better mind-reader than I do.

 

[QC]

Re: A small note on global warming.

CJY,

You missed my point which is of course my fault (no sarcasm intended). The point is, pathetic or otherwise (sarcasm intended), that I stand to personally gain if Al Gore is successful . . . The product that I sell significantly reduces greenhouse gas emissions from heavy-duty trucks and other diesel engines. Not BS, measurable and certified by both European and US test laboratories and certification authorities. I can send you copies if you'd like. The fact that I openly dispute the ability of man to significantly reduce Global Warming works against my pocketbook. This would seem to give my opinion the credibility that the reverse would not. Conversely, guys like Al Gore stand to make more money by perpetuating this fear . . .

 

[CJY]

Re: A small note on global warming.

Not if alternative technology such as fuel cells are rapidly placed into consumer hands. Screaming citizens can make this happen, unless of course citizens dispute global warming is even taking place.

If I am correct, the people screaming are not screaming to use fossil fuels more effectively, they are screaming for a non-reliance on them altogether.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: A small note on global warming.

CJY stated:

oldmerc, you never said you had those emotional types on your side of the fence too.

OMR, you said:

"Hey CJY, Isn't that is just an attempt by the America hating left to make their 'scary' argument a li'l more logical, to further their adjenda to collect more taxes and let their buds the Chinese crush us, ,"

I don't know....I guess you make a better mind-reader than I do.

Hey CYJ: Although I do generalize from time to time and label from time to time, I do it to try to win arguments or make points in the direction I am attempting to move the discussion. Libs and Conservatives are both very diverse groups of people. The Libs, (or apparent Libs based on their posts on this board are both much better informed then I am used to debating, and more courteous that I am used to as well). Most Libs here in Seattle don't engage, they just get emotional, (which is not my experience here on iboats). I don't want to pick sides between you and QC as you are both very informed and articulate and can and do put your respective points accross for others, (who are smarter then me), to judge. So I will jus' "lurk" on that one.

Second point: Maybe I'm mind readin' here, (don't think I said I didn't do a li'l mind readin' from time to time), I jus' try to keep it at a minimum as it is irritatin' to me in political debates. I think your GW argument is much more 'nuanced' then Algores' movie and his position, (yes I did pay to go see it, [my sweetie almost killed me]), but I bet you are considerably smarter then big Al. My point on GW: we lack information about the ball o' gas we revolve 'round and the total dynamics of our own planet so I'm skeptical. I do not want to tie our hands while our world wide compediters rock n' roll! Respectfully JR

 

[QC]

Re: A small note on global warming.

Not if alternative technology such as fuel cells are rapidly placed into consumer hands. Screaming citizens can make this happen

Sorry to burst your credibly (not INcredibly, credibly) optimistic bubble. The only way this happens is if "it" is economically viable. I literally sell the lowest greenhouse gas heavy-duty truck engine on the market. It also has the lowest operating costs. Again, I can back this up with third party data. It is an uphill climb, so even economics don't guarantee success. These things can not be forced. Trust me, I've been doing this for 12 years, and since day one I thought I would sit back and take purchase orders . . . My note pad is right here, there's some pretty promising scribbles on it and I even have a $5M contract for just one customer, but it has taken three years for this one project alone, and we have literally burnt $50M idling along :%

 

[CJY]

Re: A small note on global warming.

OMR,

"Hey CYJ: Although I do generalize from time to time and label from time to time, I do it to try to win arguments or make points in the direction I am attempting to move the discussion."

Yep, I was aware the first time I read one. This is also the reason I call you on it from time to time.

I would agree, I don't want our hands tied either. We have the technology to improve without losing out to the rest of the world. Just ask an oil lobbyist.


QC,

I know, money runs the world. Fuel/hydrogen cells are ready to go as we speak. They have that technology. Problem, they cannot sell them because the general public cannot use them. GM, Ford or whomever could put them in every auto, but the public has no way of getting the H needed to operate them.

It's going to take big money to get the infrastructure for the H to be delivered to John Q. Public.

Maybe we will hear some more talk of alternatives tonight. Hopefully it is not rhetoric, as it has been in the past.

 

[QC]

Re: A small note on global warming.

Can I be "cynical man" just once more? The H thing is serious BS. There is no H thing. It is "the fuel of the future and it always will be" . . . Maybe in your grand-children's children's lifetime, but the plans themselves are laughable. Imagine miles upon miles of solar generating plants to make the energy to convert other stuff to hydrogen. So, if we have the energy, why exactly do we need the hydrogen? Oh, that's right, because it's cool . . . Maybe on-board reformers, but then that's not Hydrogen now is it?

 

[crunch]

Re: A small note on global warming.

QC, you are right about most of your post.... the thing about "fuel cells" are that they can "store" more energy than "batteries", ie: "higher energy density"

 

[DJ]

Re: A small note on global warming.

The term "fuel cell" needs to be defined.

Many know fuel cells as a storage device, usually holding gasoline in a media that does not allow it to run out. They are primarily used in racing.

The other "fuel cell" is a device that creates energy using a catalyst and a fuel, such as hydrogen. It does not store the energy (electricity) it creates.

 

[crunch]

Re: A small note on global warming.

That is why I put the terms used in quotes.

 

[crunch]

Re: A small note on global warming.


If you really want to get technical, you can't "create" nor "destroy" energy.... all you can do is transfer it from one "state" to another. I forget what principle that is.

 

[bekosh]

Re: A small note on global warming.

If you REALLY want to get technical, nothing ever creates energy. It is only released from it's storage medium, be it gasoline, coal, uranium, hydrogen...whatever

The problem with hydrogen fuel cells is: Where do you get the energy to make the hydrogen? The closest source of free, uncombined hydrogen would be Jupiter. Mighty long way to go for a fill up.

On earth you need to crack it out of somehing, water or natural gas probably. That takes more energy than you would get back from the fuel cell. So all you are doing is moving the energy generation from millions of locations (cars) and concentrating it in a few large power plants.

Here's a good article on it.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell.htm

Problems with Fuel Cells
We learned in the last section that a fuel cell uses oxygen and hydrogen to produce electricity. The oxygen required for a fuel cell comes from the air. In fact, in the PEM fuel cell, ordinary air is pumped into the cathode. The hydrogen is not so readily available, however. Hydrogen has some limitations that make it impractical for use in most applications. For instance, you don't have a hydrogen pipeline coming to your house, and you can't pull up to a hydrogen pump at your local gas station.

Hydrogen is difficult to store and distribute, so it would be much more convenient if fuel cells could use fuels that are more readily available. This problem is addressed by a device called a reformer. A reformer turns hydrocarbon or alcohol fuels into hydrogen, which is then fed to the fuel cell. Unfortunately, reformers are not perfect. They generate heat and produce other gases besides hydrogen. They use various devices to try to clean up the hydrogen, but even so, the hydrogen that comes out of them is not pure, and this lowers the efficiency of the fuel cell.

Some of the more promising fuels are natural gas, propane and methanol. Many people have natural-gas lines or propane tanks at their house already, so these fuels are the most likely to be used for home fuel cells. Methanol is a liquid fuel that has similar properties to gasoline. It is just as easy to transport and distribute, so methanol may be a likely candidate to power fuel-cell cars.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: A small note on global warming.

[colour=blue]Yes, global climate change has been happenning since day one. Numerous ice ages, numerous temperate periods. Oceans rise and fall, rainforests become deserts etc etc yada yada yada.

BUT, there is a massive difference this time - we are advanced enough (not withstanding the KMA rhetoric ) to recognise that it's happenning NOW, and maybe, just maybe, we can try and do something about it - because it would be nice to imagine that our future ancestors could look forward to being vaporised by a nuke rather than melted by the sun due to a depleted ozone layer.

Rant over.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: A small note on global warming.

"America is on the verge of technological breakthroughs that will enable us to live our lives less dependent on oil. And these technologies will help us be better stewards of the environment, and they will help us to confront the serious challenge of global climate change."

Okay you Neocons. Those are words right out of Bush's own mouth. In the last campaign he repeated two words about the other guy ad nauseum. Let's see ... what were they again? ... Oh yeah. ...

Flip-Flop.

Comments?... :$

source

 

[gspig]

Re: A small note on global warming.

First off, Global warming is a joke. The "threat" is climate change. Secondly, climate change happens. Nothing man can do to keep the climate static. Has anyone heard of the giant desserts in Africa? Those at one time were rain forests. Man caused that? Ice ages came and went without man's intervention. If man cannot be adaptable, then man should die off (Dawin theory).

 

[fireman57]

Re: A small note on global warming.

I believe that you all missed the underlying reason for these companies to say what they did. Every time a law gets passed on pollution controls the utility companies raise their rates in advance to pay for the upcoming upgrades they have to make by installing new scrubbers and other technology to reduce their emissions to conform. These companies are wanting these more stringent laws so they can up the prices of their products by using this as an excuse. GE does nothing if it is going to cost them money but will do just about anything to make money. I am not even getting into the global warming argument as no one can win that one. At least on this thread there are reasonable people that conclude that it is not man made ad Al Gore suggests. I have been involved with GE in business before and know exactly their corporate thinking. This liason of companies wanting this has absolutely nothing to do with pollution or global warming. The folks on this forum who know me know that I am no conspiracy buff but this move reeks of corporate greed.