89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

[skipper123]

Hi all, I have been reading restoration post on iboats for glass boats for about a year as well as two more boating forums for the last five years. Also built an FL14 from the bateau wood boat web sight for practice purposes and lost it due to mistakes in building process as in not putting cloth on both sidess of the plywood, not caping the edges of all the plywood with cloth and maybe from not using marine grade plywood as well, I used BC grade exterior plywood from HD box store and not getting it sealed 100% from moisture as in putting a few screws through the glass to mount deck hardware lights cleats ect. This spring I purchased a 89 sylvan deck boat that needs a transome and maybe stringer and deck replaced very soon. I have follwed the bule byu renamed overhulled rebuild beginning to end that guy is great. Some of the best looking work I have saw posted. After watching him and a few other rebuilds I got a little confused on some of the products and meterials used. It looks like some of the guys use poly and vinylester resin to glue the stringers and floor to the transom vinylester being the better resin. I got my material list togeather and called US Composites only to have my bubble busted by Steve who told me not to use anything other than epoxy for gluing and bonding. Did I miss what types of resin they were using from gluing and bonding stringers to the floor as well as to the transom. The FL14 I built was all epoxy so these issues did not come up. I dont want the transome to bust loose from the stringers under pressure or anything coming loose. Have any of you guys installed a transom and used poyester or vinylester. Also has any one removed the cap or part of the cap to replace the transom on this type of boat. The whole transom can be acessed from under the rear storage area but working in that hole looks like it would kill you. I thought about cutting the cap where it drops down on the side that would be a small cut about 6 inches on the inside and outside then remove the rear section to acess the transom. One of my big questions is can you apply wet on wet with all resins without the worry of blush or sanding between coats. I would like to stick with the facts and not guess at this rebuild.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Check the first link in my signature. It has drawings and details on everything you'll be doing. No need for epoxy unless you want to use it and pay the extra expense. Same for vinylester. Poly will work just fine. Not sure by Steve told you that. As for cutting the cap you can do that. Wet on Wet is Always the best way to go. No blush with poly laminating resin without wax.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Have you installed a transom and glued in the stringers and sole with poly on a big glass boat ? If so how long ago ? Also can we use the wet on wet method with epoxy as well as poly. I can see your a poly guy and the diagram is great thanks. Could anyone else shed a little light on glueing and bonding transoms and stringers with poly verses epoxy. The big deck boat now has a 70hp 2 stroker but is going to get a new 90hp 4 stroker when the old 70 plays out. That will be another 75lbs or so on the transom. The 5 gal pail of poly at USC is 179.50 verses 290.00 for epoxy kit not a whole lot of difference and steve says the epoxy last longer well past a year without going bad. Sorry for all the questions but after five years of working with this stuff I still find their is still much to learn. This is a large boat that has and will see a lot of rough water on Clarks Hill lake on the SC/GA border. As far as I can tell the MAS epoxy is the only epoxy that is non blushing and needs no sanding between coats ? Anyone know of another ?

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

And Woodonglass I can only hope my resto turns out as nice as yours that Lonestar looks great. Back in thoes days they seem to have used better fiberglass and much better wood. Seems like the 1970 something forward things started to be built a lot cheeper and with a lot cheeper material. I looked at a 1960s Glass magic with factory floor that was as hard as a rock but have yet to find a 70s 80s era boat without rot in the transom and floor. The overhulled thread I could not understand how a boat that new could have so much rot in the wood. I always thought that brand was a high end boat. I wonder if they used epoxy resin back in the 50s 60s in glass boats.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

A few more pics of the old deck boat

 

[GT1000000]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Hi skipper123,

If you are redoing this boat with new transom, stringers and deck...you are going to need a lot more than 5 gallons of resin...closer to 15-20 gallons...

How BIG is this Sylvan?

Most major boat manufacturers built their boats using cheap lay-up resin, plywood, and the most expedient way to get the boat done for profit...with terrible care, they have lasted 20+ years...with proper care and maintenance, it could last a lifetime...

Many folks here on the forum have restored their boats using poly resin and good quality plywood and have made their boats better than the factory ever could...

In the end you can build your boat using what ever materials you feel comfortable with, but if you are on a budget, poly will work just fine...

Epoxy is a better product overall, but most guys can't justify the added expense...also keep in mind that while most purveyors of products are fairly straight forward about the products they sell, in the end they are there to make more money for the company...while 5 gals. of epoxy vs. resin, price wise doesn't seem like much when talking about one kit...it does start to add up if you need more...plus you shouldn't rely on shelf life as a selling feature...it may have a shelf life of over a year, but how long has it been sitting in their warehouse???

Keep reading and learning throughout the Restoration Forum about all the builds going on...there are a few Sylvans getting the treatment, also...

Here is a link to one of them... http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=526064&highlight=sylvan+bass+boats

Also, check out what these guys have done with resin...

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=510077

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=234392

Have Fun,
GT1M

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

You don't need epoxy as was said. The boat was originally made from polyester so use that. There are millions of boats made with polyester and none that I know of made with epoxy aside from specialty, racing, maybe. Even vinylester is only commonly used on underwater skincoats for a barrier to blisters. The part about epoxy being stronger is more from a higher elongation than from anything else. It can bend a little more before it breaks. You never hear about boats that are rebuilt because the composite failed, its always the wood that rots. We had "Swift" boats made of polyester resin in Vietnam, you wanna talk about rough usage. And if you use epoxy remember that you need special fiberglass because most glass has a styrene soluble binder that won't even work with epoxy. Man, save your money. If you do it right with polyester the boat will outlive you except that in 30 or 40 years any wood will rot again. The window for adding layers is about 18 hours max for polyester (primary bond) before its called secondary bonding and you have to abrade the surface before glassing over cured resin. Woodonglass has all the info you need for the how to about properly bonding stringers, transoms etc. in his posts. The shelf life is shorter for polyester (90 daysish)though I have used year old polyester with good results when its mixed well. And sometimes epoxy and polyester don't play well together as in bonding to each other so don't mix it up by picking one for something and the other for something else. By the way if your planning on "glueing and bonding" without any fiberglass layup to hold things together it won't work well with any resin.

 

[GT1000000]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

And Woodonglass I can only hope my resto turns out as nice as yours that Lonestar looks great. Back in thoes days they seem to have used better fiberglass and much better wood. Seems like the 1970 something forward things started to be built a lot cheeper and with a lot cheeper material. I looked at a 1960s Glass magic with factory floor that was as hard as a rock but have yet to find a 70s 80s era boat without rot in the transom and floor. The overhulled thread I could not understand how a boat that new could have so much rot in the wood. I always thought that brand was a high end boat. I wonder if they used epoxy resin back in the 50s 60s in glass boats.

While the craftsmanship values of the old days may have been better, scientifically...chemical products have become much more advanced in their formulations making them able to do more with less...which is part of the problem with modern manufacturing methods...they may try to use less of a better material to do more of a job...

And rot knows no bounds...even very high end boats, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars are susceptible...it is a fungus, and if it gets a foothold, and isn't eradicated almost immediately...it will destroy the best of woods...

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

OK Guys after reading thru three different post it seems poly will do the job and yes I will need at least 15 gals because I plan to go all the way and replace all the wood in this boat. It is a 17ft sylvan and I am stripping it to the hull. Here are a few picks of where I am now with the teardown. The foam is on the outside of the two side stringers and soaking wet. I have removed the rear section of the cap and most of the floor and started the bad job of removing the wet foam. Could some of you guys in the know look at the trailer and tell me what you think about the hull warping and if I need to add any support. I plan to leave it on the trailer that has two 2x4 bunk runners that run most of the the hull. It seems to be sitting solid.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

In the last post you can see the center stringer that looks like a 2x6 run front to back trimed at a slight angle. The two side stringers look like a 2x4 capped with a 2x4 and glassed over. Cutting plywwod for the stringers will be a pita. I was wondering if a 2x6 could be used and what type of wood to look for in a 2x6 I would compleatly seal it and glass it in with CSM and 1708 Would this be a regular pine 2x6 that has been dried. I have one Lowes and two Home Depot stores in my area but all three said they no nothing about marine grade wood. I have read Deckers thread on that 83 deck boat and noticed he had wood other than plywood being used. I hope I can make my glass work look half as good as his.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

I forgot to mention there are three rollers under the keel as well. Will try to post a better pic tomorrow. And WOG if you have time I would like your thoughts on using a 2x6 for the three stringers instead of plywood. If plywood would be much better can it be cut straight enough with a cir saw or would I need to get a table saw. If I use plywood I would laminate two peices of 3/4 to get 1 1/2 inches.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Laminated Arauco plywood is much stronger than Fir dimensional lumber. Home Depot carries the Arauco plywood. You can buy a straight edge cutting guide for your circ saw that works great for cutting the plywood. http://www.amazon.com/Swanson-CG100-100-Inch-Cutting-Guide/dp/B000IOCHWW. HD or Lowe's carries the edge guide to or you can order it from the link. Use Titebond III wood glue to lam the plywood and deck screws to hold em together. Same for fabricating the transom. Regular Ext. Grade Plywood works but MDO or Underlayment is better due to the lack of voids in the plys. You'll need at least 25 yds of 1.5 oz CSM and 15 yds of 1708 Biax. 5 qts of Cabosil, 2 1/2 qts of glass bubbles 1 lb of 1/4" chopped milled fibers, a fiberglass bubble roller and prolly more like 20 gallons of resin.

 

[Decker83]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

I see that you noted I used the dimensional lumber in my boat. I can say for 100% sure that the plywood stringers would be stronger than dimensional lumber. The plywood is used in more of the restores than not.

Now I don't want to start a big debate about using or not using plywood for stringers. The plywood is better.

My reason for using the dimensional lumber was based on serveral things. First the main stringer was no more than 5" tall. Second I have bulkheads every 16" on center. Third the 2 outside stringers were only 1 1/2 x 1 1/2. I saw no reason to use plywood and do all the extra work involed in making them

The fourth reason was the stringers in my boat had no signs of being broken, they were still very solid after 29 years of use. They did have very little rot in them by the transom.
The fifth reason is the wood is not the main support for the hull, it is the fiber glass that surrounds the stringer that give the main support. Some of the new boats don't have any wood in the boat. Some stringers are made of foam and fiber glass.

Take a good look at how well your stringers have held up over the years. If the only damage you have is rot from water then I would use what is the easy and cheapest.
With that being said, if you do decide to use the dimensional lumber, make sure you use the proper layup when glassing them in.
WOG has a excellent layup in his thread.
One other tip if you use the dimensional lumber you can take a router and round over the edges on top of the stringer and the glass will lay over it very well. Plywood will not give you this type of edge and it is harder to lay glass over.

Ok now I am done, so you guys can let me have it. (LOL) :facepalm:

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Decker, IS the Deck Boat expert. His Build is one of the BEST on the Forum if not THE BEST. All of his points ARE Spot On about using Dimensional lumber. Everyone of them. Especially the one about the Glass carrying the load. If you take care in your glassing you could use Balsa Wood for stringers as long as you used enough glass lams to carry the load!!!!!! Finding good straight Dimensional lumber can be a challenge but if you can find some good doug fir then go for it.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Thanks guys it has been of great help reading thru your builds and both of you have done some great work. That detail in your bulkheads decker is unmatched by far. That should be the strongest deck boat floating. And WOG thanks for pointing me in the right direction on the resin, the poly will make this rebuild worth doing. If I had used epoxy I would have way more money involved than the hull was worth. The wife and I had just fell in love with this boat and wanted to restore rather than replace with a different hull. In doing the rebuild we can make changes along the way to better fit what the boat will be used for. I will go back to home depot today and see if they have the Arauco. Will post some more pics as the progress gos on.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Here is a pic of how the boat sits on the trailer, what you guys think about hull flexing.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Just a quick update to the progress on the old sylvan. I think I found what hull flex was all about I noticed a small bend inward in the lower side of the hull about a third of the way back from the bow. I decided to remove the rest of the top cap to get the weight off the hull and it seemed to relax it a bit. That removed at least one hundred pounds off the hull in the forward section. The way this deck boat was made it had a large amout of wasted floor space in the top cap and Im not sure if I am going to put it back on the way it was from the factory. Back to the drawing board right now and looking at all options. Here is a pic of how she sits now. Transome is clean new wood is cut and fit but not installed yet. Working on removing the last stringer at the center.

 

[Decker83]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

Making great progress. Make sure that the sides or still the right dimension. Taking the cap off may allow the sides to bow and change the shape of the hull bottom.
Looks good.

 

[skipper123]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

After removing the rest of the cap it seemed to come back to shape. I added two 4x4 blocks on top of the fenders and it seems solid on the trailer. I had a 2x6 in the center and 2 2x4s on the sides and plan to go back with the same for the stringers. Hey Decker what plywood you going back with 5/8 or 3/4" I had only two bulkheads but plan to go back with 5 and drop from 3/4 to 5/8 plywood for the deck but was not sure how far apart the bulkheads would have to be spaced apart for 5/8.

 

[Decker83]

Re: 89 Sylvan deck boat rebuild

If I understand you correctly, you are asking about the deck ply. My deck was 1/2" from the factory and that is what I'm going back with.
I also put my bulkheads closer together on 16" center instead of the 24" center the factory used. Alot of the guys here like the 3/4" because they like how strong it feels. I would think with the extra bulkheads you plan on using the 5/8" would be fine. Just space them out evenly.