85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

[krobertson]

Long read guys sorry but want you to have the history of this boat.

1989 Bayliner Capri 1700 with an 85 HP force L drive #H085LD89A

Ok so get the water impeller fixed again(my fault), put in a tell tale, compression is good, thermostat works, made sure cylinder water jackets were all good. Checked for spark, all 3 cyl were firing. The only thing I did not do again was check timing but I did that before I went through the #3 cyl issue which was a wire from stator to power pack and I fixed that. Timing should have not changed correct?

I did sync carbs one was a bit open so I had to reset idle at lake Air mix screws are just a bit below 1 full turn out...almost a full turn but not all the way. All three open up all the way. Made sure cam was in right spot with screw. (did this effect the timing?) Have not had time to play with it on the water and set carbs. But before #3 cyl went out and before I synced the carbs it jumped right up on plan and ran awesomely. No sputtering and no issues. # 3 went out and that is how I messed up impeller testing spark 100 times in yard without boat in water I didn't care at this point.

Today....lake test...sucked! Starter went bad...just rebuilt. The guy did not put anything new to keep positive post from grounding on bottom cap where brushes are. It was like an old worn out o-ring. So I pulled it off, pulled off cap and used a zip tie to keep it from touch cap. Then used some gas line to insert in hole where positive bolt comes through and whamo she spins better than when I got it back from the starter guy. (waste of $65) Plan on bringing it back in the AM and having a god old fashion WTF convo with this guy!

Starter fixed...wont idle, set idle up to where carbs are now synced correctly....troll out and romp it...not running right. Barely got on plan. Not even close to wanting to jump up like before. I mean a good 45-60 sec before it gets on plane. Not right at all...no water in hull and trim all the way down.

Sooooo two questions.

1. Do I need to check timing again? And my fly wheel only has 2 marks not 3. should be 30 degrees BTDC correct?
2. Can it be the plug wires? Can you replace the wires alone without replacing the coil?

I had a dirt bike one time that when you pulled plug it sparked, put it in nothing. Pulled it and let it hang instead of holding it up and on a bolt....no fire. Replaced wire and it was fine. Wondering if I am having an issue like that. No idea I need some help here...I am ready to make a reef out of this boat...it is killing me!

Good news is she ran super cool and the tell tale works awesomely!

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Ok guys....lots of viewers but no responses. After trolling along I found that you CAN NOT change the plug wires so that is out. BUT I still have the timing to check.

Speaking of timing...it is everything so if anyone has any ideas...please feel free to make me feel sill by overlooking something SIMPLE! Please!!

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Get the timing out of the way, verify and set it now and it should stay there for good. Next, make sure you are firing on all three cylinders by pulling each plug cable one at a time and listening for changes in engine rpm. Any change indicates the plug wire pulled is actually firing. Do this quickly as it can have negative impact on the CDM's. If all three cylinders are firing, then it could be the idle mixture setting is a little low. Do a test run and adjust the idle mixture screws 1/8 turn more up to about 1 1/4 turn out and see if things improve.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Hang in there guy, I'm sure that it's probably something simple. Unless you messed with the timing adjustment on the tower shaft, it should not change.

Make sure that the butterflies in all three carbs are horizontal when you push the throttle all the way forward. Also, the idle mixture screws may be a bit on the lean side if they are less than 1 turn out from lightly seated. I would try them at 1 to 1 1/4 turn out and see if that helps. The idle speed is set with the screw on the tower shaft that has a locknut on it. See the red arrow below. The yellow arrow is the timing adjustment. Don't worry about the hash mark on the throttle cam lining up perfectly with the roller. It's more important to get it to idle at the correct speed.

 

[Nordin]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Notice that the throttle cam mark normally do not line up with the roller when cam rod is connected.
The cam mark is for adjusting the throttle pickup. If you messed with the cam rod adjusting according to the mark with it connected...... the throttle pickup is out.

Do like this. Disconnect the cam rod at the towershaft, push the cam forward (throttle advance) the roller shall touch (intersect) the cam at the mark. If not loose the nut holding the roller... just a little bit. The hole in the roller is not centered so you are able to adjust the roller to the cam by turning the screew.

When this is done connect the rod and check so the butterflies open fully at WOT. If not adjust by changes the length of the rod.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

What's the comp #s?
Do the spark test.
Check the fuel pump diaphram for rips,tears.
http://youtu.be/tDoR64jP5l8s.
How to set timing on outboard motor - YouTube
Go to these sites and see if that helps?
That motor the factory suggested that the air screws to be set at 1 turn out.
My 88/85's are both set at that.
Or bring it on over,we'll take a look?
Some minor adjusting can be done after it gets warm.

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Ask and you shall receive! I love this group. Ok guys Starting from the top question down.

Jig - I will double check spark and timing today...takes all of 10 min.

pnwboat - timing I had to set when I first got it...linkage block broke. But I had it right...just didn't know if it would move from a link-sync or anything since it is controlled by the throttle tower. Idle is set and butterflies are open 99.9% evenly.

nordin - butterflies are open fully at WOT

jerry - compression is between 122-132 #1 highest #3 lowest....cold engine not at WOT. I will move my air screws to 1 turn out.

Guys thanks for all the help...it seems you get fiberglass done and motor is great, get to water lose a cylinder, get spark back start overheating, get water back starter breaks, get starter rigged, now boat will not plane. I ask my self what is next. I am very mechanically inclined and have great trouble shooting abilities. I am not using old parts and bad craftsmen ship on the motor. Other than the starter! It puzzles the heck out of me it really does...just my thoughts.

Do more to her after work....keep your eyes out...and thanks again.

 

[Nordin]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Okey your butterflies open fully BUT is the throttle pickup correct adjusted?
The throttle pickup is the sync between timing advance and throttle advance.
If it is incorrect you may have problem with the performance all way up.
Check it due to my advice or look at FrankA link and sync in the top of the page.

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

OK checked the butterflies, spark, and such. Because I had turned the thing to 1 1/4 turns out on each carb I think it was too fat. In the tub in the yard it ran better with each one between 1/2 and 3/4 out. This is about where it was when I got it and cleaned the carbs in the beginning. Also idled up as you would expect so I had to set the idle down again. I will bring it out to the lake tonight and test it...again.

 

[Anchor Marine Repair LLC]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Your compression numbers are bad. All the 2, 3, 4, 5 cylinder Forces ran high compression numbers. A healthy 85 has 150 lbs each cylinder.

It will still run, but run rough. It will have no power, poor acceleration, and idle get worse as the motor gets warmer. You can mess around with all these different adjustments, but you'll never get this motor to run right until you rebuild your motor.

If you decide to put any further effort into this motor, use your time wisely. Pull your exhaust plate. I guarantee you will see scoring on the pistons.

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Ok...so question what other type of power head can you put on this L Drive? I know larger Force motors like the 120 and such. But can you put a different power head on this drive unit and make it work?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Yes you can, but the problem is the splines on the crankshaft. The regular outboard power heads typically have 15 splines in the crankshaft where the drive shaft is connected to the crank. The L-Drive crank typically has 13. If you can find a regular outboard block that matches the splines on your L-Drive set up it'll probably work. Having said that, you need to double check to see exactly how many splines your particular crank shaft/drive shaft stub has to be 100% sure.

 

[Anchor Marine Repair LLC]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Ok...so question what other type of power head can you put on this L Drive? I know larger Force motors like the 120 and such. But can you put a different power head on this drive unit and make it work?

I guess I've never heard of someone doing, but that doesn't make it more or less of a fact.

My question back to you, is why go through all that effort? The Forces can be good motors. Most Forces out there are Mercury made, so there's still parts support for them.

Any motor that gets overheated will get damaged just the same.

A very smart Marine Technician instructor once told me, "When people ask me what's the best motor out there? I tell them I can make any motor last a lifetime, since I take care of them properly"

I have adopted that creedo, since I feel the same. In fact, I'm rebuilding a 85 Force 1992 to add onto one of my rental boats (I got it for $100). Then I'm rebuilding another motor, just the powerhead from an 85 to put on my shelf of rebuilt powerheads. I'll part out the rest on Ebay to cover my costs.

Both of these have overheat damage, since the boat's warning horn (the actual speaker) wasn't hooked up.

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

My question back to you, is why go through all that effort? The Forces can be good motors. Most Forces out there are Mercury made, so there's still parts support for them.

Any motor that gets overheated will get damaged just the same.

Anchor...not to pop your bubble or get in any kind of forum who's right or who's wrong here. As for your rebuild answer...yes...everything I buy is damaged and I rebuild, this is just my first boat. If I had the $$ to go new I wouldn't have Force questions.

I doubt when the buzzer went off I damaged anything...I'm sure the buzzer by design pops off at a safe shut down temperature not a meltdown temperature. A motor is a motor...carb or not they all have the same functions. As for the compression...this boat not but a couple of weeks ago was planning fine, jumping right up on plane and had lots of power. Idled good and fired right up at the bump of a key. My compression #'s are the same before the overheat as to after also. If you read my opening post it says all that. I lost spark, fixed that but during the fixing and turning over quite a few times during trouble shooting I must have lost impeller. Well I replaced impeller and during that process I re-synced carbs and set them to 1 1/4 turns out. That was WAY too much. When I went to lake that I believe was why it wasn't planning in the first minute. So I got it in tub at yard and ended up right at 3/4 turn out on each carb and a smidge less on the bottom one. That was where it was when I first got it. Spec said start at 1 1/4 out so I tried it as well it was suggested. Im going to the lake again and testing this afternoon. I will also bring my screw driver and make sure carbs are on best behavior.

As for compression...I have a Suzuki Samurai...1986...hunting toy. It's sitting on 20 lbs less per cyl then spec'ed when new. It starts, runs fine, and still pushes a pair of 31" tires 65+ mph down the road with 4" of lift. Remember Samurai's only ran TOP's on a good day no wind maybe 70 brand new off the showroom floor. My point is COMPRESSION is essential to have a good running motor...but -20 lbs isn't going to make a motor run like a complete dog. Especially a high compression motor to start with.

That being said don't take this as me throwing stones please. Just read post at beginning...my question to start. That was what I needed answered not a compression lesson. Or I would have asked about compression not the two questions above.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

OK checked the butterflies, spark, and such. Because I had turned the thing to 1 1/4 turns out on each carb I think it was too fat. In the tub in the yard it ran better with each one between 1/2 and 3/4 out. This is about where it was when I got it and cleaned the carbs in the beginning. Also idled up as you would expect so I had to set the idle down again. I will bring it out to the lake tonight and test it...again.

When setting idle mixture don't be misled with the increasing rpm of the engine as you are adjusting. Instead listen for the part where the engine starts to rough idle when going either too lean or too rich with the idle mixture setting and then finally set it midpoint. During testing in the water make sure the trim is set properly so the boat should be porpoising slightly. Remember 2 cycle engines are designed to run a little rich due to lack of dedicated lube system but not too rich it will foul your plugs prematurely.

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Jiggz...yes sir I am going to treat it like a dirt bike 2 stroke. Bring it rich the come back lean just a bit until it smooth's a bit out. Then I will do a run for a few minutes and shut it down and read the plugs...that's the sure sign....looking for a rich brown right! I always like a motor that I have to change plugs in now and then rather than one I have to change pistons in!!!

 

[Anchor Marine Repair LLC]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Anchor...not to pop your bubble or get in any kind of forum who's right or who's wrong here. As for your rebuild answer...yes...everything I buy is damaged and I rebuild, this is just my first boat. If I had the $$ to go new I wouldn't have Force questions.

I doubt when the buzzer went off I damaged anything...I'm sure the buzzer by design pops off at a safe shut down temperature not a meltdown temperature. A motor is a motor...carb or not they all have the same functions. As for the compression...this boat not but a couple of weeks ago was planning fine, jumping right up on plane and had lots of power. Idled good and fired right up at the bump of a key. My compression #'s are the same before the overheat as to after also. If you read my opening post it says all that. I lost spark, fixed that but during the fixing and turning over quite a few times during trouble shooting I must have lost impeller. Well I replaced impeller and during that process I re-synced carbs and set them to 1 1/4 turns out. That was WAY too much. When I went to lake that I believe was why it wasn't planning in the first minute. So I got it in tub at yard and ended up right at 3/4 turn out on each carb and a smidge less on the bottom one. That was where it was when I first got it. Spec said start at 1 1/4 out so I tried it as well it was suggested. Im going to the lake again and testing this afternoon. I will also bring my screw driver and make sure carbs are on best behavior.

As for compression...I have a Suzuki Samurai...1986...hunting toy. It's sitting on 20 lbs less per cyl then spec'ed when new. It starts, runs fine, and still pushes a pair of 31" tires 65+ mph down the road with 4" of lift. Remember Samurai's only ran TOP's on a good day no wind maybe 70 brand new off the showroom floor. My point is COMPRESSION is essential to have a good running motor...but -20 lbs isn't going to make a motor run like a complete dog. Especially a high compression motor to start with.

That being said don't take this as me throwing stones please. Just read post at beginning...my question to start. That was what I needed answered not a compression lesson. Or I would have asked about compression not the two questions above.

I read your post a few times before I decided to answer.

My answer to the first question-
So where is your timing advancing from idle spec to WOT spec? Even if you're within 5 degrees of WOT, it will still plane just fine. Some flywheels have 2 marks, some have the idle with a Wide Open Throttle that has a 3 right close to each other.

The second question answer is:

The only way a 3 plug wires are bad at the same is if they were cut or burned off.

You don't have to listen to me. Keep turning them idle screws.

I'm only here to help the type of person who will actually take advice.

You can't compare a 2 stroke engine compression to a 4 stroke engine compression. Fuel is pulled with the bottom of a 2 stroke piston (piston skirt). A 4 stroke gets its fuel dropping in from the top of the piston, after it splashes across the valve. So as long as you have gravity and a piston moving, the 4 stoke isn't that picky. But if a piston skirt is scuffed on a 2stroke, it hampers the operation of the motor exponentially. This is because the piston skirt has to have the vacuum to pull fuel back to the combustion chamber.

So yes 20 lbs. make all the difference in the world to a 2 stroke.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

I think that both Anchor Marine and Krobertson both have vaild points....but, remember, this motor was running OK with the amount of compression that it has. Correct me if i"m wrong, but didn't this problem start after the water pump impeller was changed?

 

[krobertson]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Well it started when I went to the ocean. Bouncing around gave me a bad spark....then from there I killed the impeller. Then I link and synced the carbs...after that I stopped planning like before. Today at the lake carbs back to where it was when I got it she planed fine. 4/3 turn on 1 and 2, bit less on 3. Could she use a rebuild yes....but I would rather spend the $ on a better boat than on this Bayliner....just my 2 cent.

Anchor....it was not the idle screw...it was the mixture screws I was turning. Flat head and some 98 degree Florida sun and all is well. Not bad for 20- lbs. Doesit run like new...no idea since I just got it and it's a 89. Does it run like I need it to...yep. Got me from dock to open water and back with no issues...that's what I like. And the new tell tale is awesome...everyone with an L drive should make this a must!

 

[Anchor Marine Repair LLC]

Re: 85 hp Force plug wires anyone? Slow to plane....very slow! Please help!

Glad you got it.